How Marketing Has Changed with Brittany McBean

NOTE: This podcast was transcribed by an AI tool. Please forgive any typos or errors. SUMMARY KEYWORDS marketing, how marketing has changed, clients, messaging, business, work, marketer, copy, person, copywriters, people, sales page, nuance, talk, research, conversion rate, started, listening, change, conversion, funnel SPEAKERS Brittany McBean, Erin Ollila Erin Ollila 00:04 Hey friends, welcome to the Talk Copy to Me podcast. Here we empower small business owners to step into the spotlight with their marketing and messaging. I’m your host, Erin Ollila. Let’s get started and talk coffee. Hello friends today i have Brittany Meg been here on the tuck copy to me podcast. You might know her as a launch strategist and conversion copywriter. But what you don’t know about Brittany is that when she gets depressed, she binges interspecies friendship, YouTube videos, and I’m gonna be completely honest, I read that and I’m like, I don’t even think I know what this means. Are we talking about aliens? Like what are you watching? Tell me everything. Maybe we should cancel our conversation and just talk about this. Brittany McBean 00:54 know like, when to animals? Erin Ollila 00:58 Are we talking about like a cat and a giraffe? Or you’re talking about aliens? Brittany McBean 01:06 Oh, like, if you’re having a bad day, if you’re having a bad day, just type in Bella and Tara. Or Okay, that’s gonna be okay, perfect. But don’t type in an update because one of them died. It’s really sad. So I know everybody came here for your like YouTube animal niche podcast, Erin Ollila 01:24 which is totally fine. Because I’m starting to think like which conversation is better right now maybe we should stay on the animals. But we will move on and talk about marketing in 2023. Because Holy Moly, it is unrecognizable to marketing in 2019. In some ways, not too good. But in other ways, I think, incredible changes. I’ve always admired about you that you have you. You tell it how it is and you’re standing really firm to your own beliefs. Obviously, those beliefs are similar to mine, which is why I appreciate it so much. But I think it’s important to talk about how life around us is affecting the way that we present our copy and our content and our businesses to our communities. So I don’t know, I mean, there’s really no great way to jump into this, maybe we should first start talking about how like, consumers are really changing their standpoint of how they feel about some of what our previous best practices are things like scarcity or pain points and all of those things. Where do you think that shift is coming from, Brittany McBean 02:35 I like to liken it to the Hunger Games. So hold tight here, traditional marketing and by traditional way like since like 2015. So you know, real historic here, which is, of course, a spin off from like, marketing from the 80s, which of course is a spin off from like marketing from the 50s, which is really like the Mad Men like David Ogilvy like kind of where all of this started, which if we really think about it, like what they were selling was like cigarettes and like what we’re selling now like what we’re truly trying to sell people, if you’re in the like, online marketing world, like you’re, you’re selling a transformation, you’re selling someone a change, like the the strategies that sold ties and cigarettes like, it might not, it might not be surprising that it doesn’t translate when you’re trying to like sell a transformation, but the traditional, you know, real historic 2015 Till maybe like 2001, we really peaked, I went down a deep dive and research and online marketing peaked in q3 of 2021. And has been going downhill since that really was like the capital like this, like mainstream, shiny. All of us in it thought that this was the way the world was. And this is, this is how things work. And who wouldn’t want to be here and this everyone must love this, right? And this is how we do things. This is what we’re going to teach this is the way the world is and what we didn’t realize. And what I think we’re now seeing is that there’s actually this society or subset that is growing larger. And these rumblings in the district of people who are starting to get very unhappy with the shiny, capitalistic way of being told to live being told to buy being told to like accept things as they are and is traditional marketing still working? Yes. Are people still making money doing it? Absolutely. Are people at the top who have been making millions if not billions, with millions of dollars dollars in ad spend, and hundreds of 1000s, multiple hundreds of 1000s of people on their list, still making millions, absolutely. But they are seeing a drop, they’re seeing a drop in conversion rates, and they’re seeing a drop in revenue. But they’re still making millions, it is still working. But if we ignore the rumblings, we’re going to be in trouble, we’re going to start to get left behind camera stuff really, really soon. And so the marketers who may not be making millions and may not have those hundreds of 1000s on their list, who may not have those millions in Facebook ads to leverage and those with brand loyalty and maybe aren’t working at the top of their industry and maybe aren’t speaking to beginners, which those at the top of their industry speaking to beginners are speaking to people who are not jaded. And they are creating, they are implanting a potential for the first time, much like a pyramid scheme. So if you are not speaking to someone who is entering into a potential for the first time, someone who is a little bit jaded, maybe not a beginner, you are already working against something, a lot of those people are starting to see a big dip, and they can’t make it up with millions and ads, and ad spend. And they don’t have those hundreds of 1000s, where even if the conversion numbers drop in the revenue drop, they can still make payroll, they can still, you know meet some of their goals. The rumblings are getting much louder, our audiences are much more sophisticated, they’re much more intelligent, they’re learning how to think critically, they’re seeing behind the curtain, they are understanding the lies that they have been sold and how they have been duped, and they are in much more saturated markets. And they have also tried many solutions that did not live up to the promises. So this doesn’t mean that we have to work harder and that life is like that this is now hopeless and it but it means that like the marketing strategies, and just copy formulas and headline formulas are no longer. Good enough. That was a lot of rambling. Erin Ollila 07:19 Yeah, everyone go watch one of those interspecies videos and then come right back to us. Brittany McBean 07:24 But there’s but it’s good news. It’s good news, because the low hanging fruit is yours. And all you have to do is treat your audience with a degree of respect and intelligence. And you already have a leg up. Erin Ollila 07:35 Yeah. And I think that’s what people are missing. And it’s the most obvious and clear solution. And not speaking of that, as if like, you know, I know everything. And you know, common man doesn’t. But here’s what happens, right? It here’s what’s happened in the past five years that we’ve listened to these marketers with the hundreds of 1000s of people’s on their list and tried to model their businesses without realizing that we all have to create our own business. And what works for some people will not work for others based on a variety of factors. I mean, you named a bunch of them, right? So if we’re going to look at adjusting or pivoting, I can see how people who have built their business to perform in one way based on you know, quote, unquote, best practices, I can see the fear or the anxiety that might come up. But I think if we kind of like, closed down the laptop for a second, and we kind of just sat with ourself, here’s what you have to do, you have to show up, remembering why you started your business, remembering who you wanted to help. And like you said, just treat them with respect. So let’s stop approaching everything from sales and marketing. Those are, I don’t know if this is the right word departments, right? Like those are tools that we have within our business. They’re vital. i There’s nothing wrong with selling. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with marketing. I’m a marketer, I love it. But if we, if we consider them, even if we’re solo businesses, if we can consider them our departments, and we put those like department hats on when the time comes. And we look at our client base or our audience, as the people that want to work with us. And we treat them on a human to human approach. I think that’s that’s the easy part. Right? Like, just remember why you’ve kind of got into this and who you want to help and why you want to help them. You don’t have to like look at the shift in marketing as a complete terrifying thing. You’re just adjusting the patterns that you’ve kind of created over time. Brittany McBean 09:31 That’s a really interesting point of like the compartmentalizing a little bit. And also realizing that like fulfillment is another department and yeah, if if fulfillment is also a priority, and sometimes a less expensive one, then marketing fulfillment, creates case studies and testimonials and that’s that’s actually really powerful marketing and that’s marketing that costs you less, less money. Yeah, it’s a little done. As does some more heavy lifting for you sometimes, Erin Ollila 10:02 absolutely. Because you know, social proof, obviously is what sells, like, we all want to know that someone who has been in our situation has been moved past that, like you mentioned, like we’re in the business of selling transformation. Great, show me that transformation. Like, don’t sell me on the promise of a transformation. But show me how it’s worked for someone in a similar situation. And I’m so much more apt to buy in that position. Because I feel confident working with you. I even if there is a difference, let’s say I’m the consumer, there’s a difference between me and the precise case study development, I can see it happening. And I can see that your approach, whether it worked or not in like, you know, as part of the case study, I can see your approach was at least strategic and smart and that you’re trying and that gives me confidence in you as the business owner. Brittany McBean 10:53 Yeah, it doesn’t have to be this like, well, nothing else. Nothing works, or like everything’s broken, right? Like, it’s just, hey, maybe maybe the gimmicks aren’t it anymore. And sometimes it’s easier to pull from the grab bag of gimmicks, that is true. It is easier to say our marketing strategy is price stacking, and our marketing strategy is a webinar with this script and this template and our marketing strategy is this evergreen funnel. But like, that’s not really strategy. Those are just gimmicks, that that’s just, that is just a grab bag of stuff that you are like, adding and hoping it works and like yeah, you can test that. But I don’t know, that’s, that’s really a pretty low bar. For me. It’s messaging. And the thing is like it always it always has been like messaging is always more important than copy. And then copy is just like structure, but because of the sophistication and intelligence of our audience, like that’s, that’s kind of what we have left. And and they kind of have called, called our bluff on on the gimmicks and I find that to be quite refreshing, honestly. Erin Ollila 12:11 No, I’m with you, 100%. And I’m so glad you went here because that was going to be my next move is like, Okay, well, marketing is different. Sure. You know, we’ve done a lot of copy and pasting of different generations of you’ve mentioned and then worst copying and pasting of those unreachable influencers in the most recent part. But then how does how do we move past that? It’s the way that we speak to our people, like you mentioned, it’s not copy. It’s not the exact words that we use in the copywriting formulas that we use, it’s the way that we share our mom business message, our brand message, our product message. And I think that that’s a little bit more nebulous for the non marketer to understand. So when you mentioned that, like messaging is shifting a little Do you have any advice on how they can look at that in their own business of like how to approach a shift from like, marketing tactics to like solid brand messaging? Brittany McBean 13:11 It is it is listening, listening, and it is relevancy. I think everyone’s tired of like hearing market research. And you had a such a good episode with Melissa Payne. She’s I know her she’s so smart, and so wonderful. And so I don’t want to be redundant. And everyone should absolutely go listen to that, because she really breaks down like, voice of customer research and how it can be done and what can be done. And so I want to, like add to that conversation. But it’s the nuances in that, and it is like, No, you don’t have to be doing this all day, every day and constantly going in and constantly optimizing and constantly editing, right? It’s not about that, but it is knowing when you are now speaking to an audience that isn’t there anymore. And it is knowing like when people have shifted and it is knowing when you’re when you’re responding to anecdotal evidence and when, like the anecdotal evidence has now added up and now maybe like this is actually we have a different hierarchy going on. And I can explain more about about what that means. But it is it is that listening and it is that that objective listening and putting aside your perspective and and understanding where those different messages go at different parts of the funnel. And so you know, one thing that Melissa talked about and this is something that we do with our clients is those different data points like doing that those one on one interviews and doing those surveys and doing that like data mining and and so knowing like, Okay, what’s cold audience? What’s warm audience what’s, what’s hot audience you know, where do these Where do these go in the funnel, those kinds of things, but also understanding like, just because I heard something and because it stood out to me, does that mean that this is in the messaging hierarchy? Is this number one or like, did this just stand out to me and so you have to have that quality? That qualitative data you have to have critical mass where you can do You can say no, this is really the top problem going on right now. And so in, you know, 2019 2020 2021 Yes, there was like that big burst, or sorry, really, it was like 2020 21. And then better 2022 There was like that big burst of the pandemic, and then everything was weird. But then we kind of hit this like this law where things were kind of the same for with people for a while, you know, we didn’t have to like be updating, but right now these last like six to nine months, like, no one is living the same world or same experience as they were last year. And so what we’re seeing with a lot of our clients is the numbers are plummeting, because they are now speaking to an audience that isn’t there anymore. So now it is time to run this new surveys. And it is time to say, Okay, what is no longer applying what what messaging doesn’t exist, what messaging is irrelevant what hierarchy has shifted, and that goes for the positive stuff, you know, the dreams, the hopes, the desires, the goals, the negative stuff, the fears, the anxieties hesitations that goes for offer, positioning, what things in your offer actually matter. What solutions are actually looking for, what outcome they’re actually looking for, you know, all of those things. And you can do that in ways that are attainable. You can do that in ways that do fit into your schedule, but making sure that you’re gathering enough data points from your people, not just any people. That’s actually a huge problem was a huge problem I have with how I see creatives and copywriters using chat GBT right now, I personally have no problem with LGBT no fear of being replaced by it. I think it’s a great thing. And I think that there’s problems with it, like no desire to convince people not to use it in order to hire me. But what I see is a lot of copywriters saying like, Oh, yeah, I can use this for research and like, Give me three problems somebody might have if they’re trying to solve XY and Z, and I’m like, amazing. That has nothing to do with my clients audience at all. That’s not going to convert. That’s great. You just turned in some copy that your client likes. That’s not going to convert. Congratulations. I’m getting off on a tangent. Erin Ollila 17:15 No, that’s okay. They I have I have like 500 things to say to that. So I think the tangent was really good. I’m really glad you brought up Melissa’s episode, I will say I think everyone who’s listened to enough podcast episodes with me, and it knows that I tend to be a little bit more positive and encouraging than picking on people or picking on things. But I will give I will pick on people for one second. Here’s my big here’s my big problem with that relates to so many different things when it comes to marketing, messaging, copy, and all that is that everyone loves shortcuts. And it’s so frustrating. But like everyone just wants to take the shortcut to things because the normal process is hard, and it’s uncomfortable. And there’s choices that need to be made and things could fail. So what happens is they say that they’re going to do things like messaging, and they do a quick review. Or they use Chachi GBT or they like, read a couple Amazon reviews and like, pat themselves on the back. But nobody actually really does good voice of client research. Like this is one of those few marketing things where I will very firmly think, and recommend people actually hire out versus doing it on their own. If you have no budget, this is not me picking on you, like do the best that you can 100% I am not picking on you what I’m picking on as the people who have the budget, and just kind of give themselves that pat on the back and think like, all right, I know my clients, because everything that you said is so true in the sense of like the world has changed at such a rapid pace. Everything you mentioned would be true without the pandemic, but it would just take longer for people to notice that their client base has changed during that, but one of my clients is Oracle, and they had a previous content hub called Smarter CX, where it was all about customer experience. And during the pandemic, like right in the beginning of it, I was writing an article about bulbus, which is buy online pick up in store, we’re obviously outside of the store. And if you write content, or if you read content, you’ll know a lot of these things are researched, right? So they pull in studies that have been done, statistics, all of that, but how could I use statistics or studies about purpose that were done in January of 2020 when April of 2020 was a vastly different experience right? And what buy online pick up in store was like in April 2020 is completely different from what it is today in May of 2023. So that’s like I think an easy to see an example because you know I think we all know people didn’t even know Babis existed pre pandemic right. I was like thank you got it kids sleep In a car seat, like bring it to me. But it’s just changed so vastly So considering that as just an example, and then reflecting on your own business, again, you know, I’m not normally one to pick on people. But I think that everyone likes to think that their clients are, who they’ve determined who their clients are. And that’s, I mean, we all have our own biases and in prejudice and our own response to what we’d like for our business. So if you have an outside source of someone who does brand messaging like, like, Melissa, for an example, actually researching your current clients, people who have been leads, people who have gone to your competitors that might not have hired you, like, all different types of people that are really truly actually in your world, to find out what’s changed for them, the amount of insight into your own business and your future marketing is going to be incredible. Like, it’s one of those things you can’t take a shortcut on. Because, you know, like you mentioned, like, we’re moving from marketing tactics into a clarity around messaging. And if you don’t know that, if you don’t have the data in the research, you’re just guessing Brittany McBean 21:12 this has been a part of my process this going into my fourth year of business, which like, does not make me like a seasoned sage by any stretch of the imagination. And also, it’s like 50 years of online business. But even when I first started, I was like, you know, I’m not coming out of the gates, brilliant, trained copywriter. So I don’t know where to start when it comes to writing copy, even though I’ve taken these courses in these classes and read the books like I just don’t feel like staring at a blank cursor, and I can just come up with this brilliant stuff. So the research and the messaging was was honestly my way of managing my anxiety and my clients investment when I started. And then it was like my thing, like, I’m, I’m such a strategist, like, I’m not good at much, but my brain see strategy like, like, I smell colors in strategy, you know? And, and it just like, I realized, like, this is it, this is how I figure out what we write on the on on the page. And so that was such an ingrained part of our process from the beginning. And, and from the beginning, our clients were like, Oh, our conversions went up, and oh, my God, our landing pages, or our sales pages experiencing 20% conversion rate. And I’m like, no, no, no, like, you’ve read that wrong. It’s 2.8%. Right? Like, that’s, that’s a conversion rate on a sales pitch like no, no 28%, you know, so we’re like, oh, lead to sale conversion is 7%. I’m like, no, no, you’ve read that wrong. It’s point 7%. They’re like, No, no, no, no, it’s 7%. I was very excited by that. And a 15 week, project launch or funnel project, which it’s 15 weeks because I want to give my clients three weeks for install. It’s really 12 weeks of our work. Six weeks of that is research and strategy. Six weeks of that so and like, who I want to pick on is the copywriters who say who will take your money and say they do research and messaging and strategy and they sit there in some Facebook groups and read it or chat GPT and say, what are three problems? Somebody might experience if they’re trying to solve explosive diarrhea, or whatever, right? Anyway, that was just like, my way of managing my anxiety or, or feeling like I was honoring my clients investment. And then we just really started fine tuning this process and really like developing our own proprietary process. And, and you know, I like I like this not that or let’s do more of this, or do we really get good results with this? Or like, hey, we don’t get any more new data after 150 survey results. So like, instead of spending eight hours analyzing survey results, let’s only spend five hours analyzing survey results. And then we get the pie charts that we need of messaging. Like we have pie charts of messaging, because that makes me feel so much better than just like guessing, right. But what’s been so fascinating is as everyone else’s conversion rates have started plummeting, which is not something I like delight in, of course, I don’t want to see that for business owners. Our clients conversion rates have either stayed the same, which I consider an increase if everything else is going down. And ours are staying the same. I’m like that’s, that’s, that’s pretty good, or they’re actually increasing right now, which I’m not seeing anywhere else. And I can’t guarantee that like I can’t guarantee that if you want to inquire and work with me like that’s actually going to happen and you’re like, like now I am seeing more realistic conversion rates like a sales page converting at 5% instead of 28%. But considering an average conversion rate is two to 5% I felt really good about 5% Or we might see like a 17% conversion rate that’s still insane. I feel amazing about that, you know, but this is still like it’s such a it’s such an ingrained part of our process and such a I could never just ask chat GPT what what problems could be because what if, what if that’s not my clients, people like what if my client is super extroverted and only attracts people with like a lot of confidence or a lot of or only attracts like really introverted people who don’t have confidence and want to be like my client, you know, and they’re gonna have drastically different problems or, I don’t know, like, there’s so much nuance and if your messaging isn’t nuanced, or you don’t get the hierarchy, right, or it’s, of course, there’s a margin of error like you don’t, you don’t have to get it perfect. And of course, there’s an opportunity for optimizing. And of course, we don’t get it right every single time, you know, but, but if you don’t get the nuance, and if you do, just hit lazy copy, like, it’s not your fault, or if you feel so overwhelmed, or if you’re struggling, or it doesn’t have to be this way, your people are going to roll their eyes and click off. Or if you’re sitting there like just hitting their anxieties and hitting their pain points, and they don’t need any help feeling anxious and pain, they’re out of there, like the bounce rate is going to be really, really high. And if you’re only leaning on the response that you’re getting from people that you’re coaching, if you’re only leaning on your testimonials, if that’s where you’re getting your messages, well, that’s a post purchase experience, that’s a post purchase, win, like, Sure, everybody loves your coaching, but nobody’s buying for mindset, or nobody would find that interesting, because it doesn’t solve the problem that they’re having before they bite, you know, like the the nuance it matters and where you’re collecting your data matters. And at what point of the funnel, you’re having that conversation with that person really, really matters. And that’s not meant to say that like you can’t do it as as a business owner, and it’s not meant to say you have to hire it out, or it has to take you six weeks like this is my full time job, I actually have a team that helps me with this, I have a full time employee that helps me with this, like I have a proprietary process that that we go through. But it really matters and being flippant with it, or, or having a system to develop this, or sorry, having a system to collect this information and then ever using it, I fear that people will burn out trying to generate the revenue that they were getting two years ago, with the strategies that they used, that just simply don’t work anymore, and that a lot of people and families are going to be stuck in situations that they thought they had gotten themselves out of two and three years ago. And I think Erin Ollila 27:18 if we’re going to look back on what worked, I think we also really have to take an honest review of our own approaches. Because, you know, I hear this a lot I hear like, well, I made x so much money in these X years. But then I look at the marketing efforts that they put out in those years. And a lot of them were really truly driven by pain points. And in very clear sales tactics, right? Or like Brittany McBean 27:45 barely doing anything at all, because you could literally make money doing the minimum, Erin Ollila 27:51 right? And where I see a lot of that is like the like brainwashed capital part of this, especially this online business world, because I can’t tell you so I came right after I came into my business, very shortly after graduating with an MFA in creative writing that I paid for myself that cost a crap ton of money. So when it came to like investing in my business, I would like you know, especially at first and like Facebook groups were really all the rage, I would hear some of my business friends saying like, Oh, I just hired a coach for $10,000. And I’m like, You guys are bananas. Like, I would take that $10,000 And like pay like pay towards my MFA right now. Like, I just spent 10s of 1000s of dollars, I’m sure as heck not having some stranger. And I’d be like, Oh my gosh, wow, where did that person go to school? Like, what did they do? Like, how long have they been doing this? And it would be like, you know, I’m definitely this is going to be a whole episode of Aaron picking on people. But like that would be like someone just brand new to the business world saying that they were a coach and that they had everything that they needed if you followed their method. And I think that was always just so frustrating. To me, it’s like, I would just see person after person not getting results that they wanted and losing a ginormous amount of money. So I think for the most part, people that are business owners that are listening, even if it’s like you, you know, you spent $100 on something that you were completely dissatisfied with. I think everyone knows that feeling of being like, Well, that was junk, or like, I did not get what I wanted from here. And so if we look at like successes of the past, we also really do have to ask ourselves, did you actually give people the transformations that they were hoping for? Like did you provide the best quality experience and make that a determining factor and and how we adjust our own marketing, you know, so for me, for example, especially like if I take websites, you know, one thing I try to do like to to disqualify leads is if I don’t think that they’re ready for the website, simply because they don’t know their own business. And that’s a lot of people, right, like a lot of people are really excited about getting this sparkling, beautiful website. But when it comes time to like write that services page, and they don’t really know what’s included in the service, or they don’t really know how much things come asked. So I can say for sure that there are clients that I’ve worked with that I’m like, working with them showed me very clearly that they weren’t ready. So that’s I’m trying to share my own mistakes as an example of how we can reflect on our own previous sales and marketing to say, like, what would help me be a more ethical marketer? What would help me get the right type of client at the right time? We’ve talked a lot about conversion, but almost everything that you just said, relates exactly back to SEO. I hear all the time. I’m using chat GPD for SEO and I’m like, Ah, ha, ha, great. Cool. I’m glad that you just got a random list of keywords and I’ve done it. In some ways, it’s really fun to see a group of words together and there are some SEO things that I’ve seen like especially people in the tech SEO world do like they’ve shared on Twitter that I’m like that’s fascinating how they’ve used AI to like do cold down keyword research list of like 400 keywords into like the three ideal ones based on x y&z So I’m not I’m not acting as if AI cannot help with SEO research. But But taking everything you said about conversion and relaying it into the search part. So many people like to think that they know what their search terms will be based on their functions of their job and the functions of what they’re offering. But lot of the times the people who are searching for you anyone like the service provider, or the product that they’re searching for, they don’t know how to put into words what they’re looking for. You joked about like, using explosive diarrhea like as like something to like, solve a problem, right? But then here’s all of those like Nuance factors that go into it. Is this a one time condition? Is this an adult or a child? Have they eaten anything? And I mentioned the one time condition, because it’s like people have illnesses that could make something like that a regular occurrence. So if you tell them, like, you know, eat some bread and try to like, you know, don’t take a probiotic, that’s not going to help the person with the illness, right. So when we think about how people are searching, we have to have those nuanced data points to be able to help us figure out how to use the words our clients are using to find us. And I think it really goes back to we’re talking about messaging. But for that, like finding part and that converting part, I think we also have to consider in, like client personas, and I know, that’s an older marketing phrase. But I really think that we have a spectrum of clients that work with us, and we need to consider that spectrum. In the coffee world ever. You’ll hear a lot of people say like right to one person. And the advice itself isn’t wrong, right. But it’s this is the problem with online marketing is there’s a lot to unpack under that a right to one person, they’re saying it because they want your message to be clear. And they want the ideal, like the most ideal client to be able to purchase. And I’ve said this 1000 times on the podcast that you guys are probably annoyed with it but like it’s not just soccer moms and like midlife crisis, men going to like individual car lots to buy their cars, right? Like car lots are selling to all types of people who need their cars. The day that we get a car lot that’s like, you know, midlife crisis. Convertibles here only like that’s when you know, marketing and sales has drastically changed. So I’m not recommending that you speak to 500 people, I’m not recommending that, like, you come up with a list of 40 type of ideal clients that you could speak to, you do need to keep it reined in. But I think that like if you look at that tiny group of clients, like ideal clients, look at the nuances within those groups and learn how to speak to them in your messaging. Brittany McBean 33:54 While I have never had a white client come to me, who did not have a ideal client who didn’t look like them. Or, or an ideal client who lived outside of California or New York, that’s, that’s another thing, or someone who lived in middle class America, which is another thing. But if you as a seller, a coach, a teacher, whoever you are, if you are white sis hat, I’m I’m hoping and assuming that not everyone listening to this is but if you are, and you want to work with people who do not look live or love the same as you, then you should probably learn a little bit about perspectives that are different than yours. And that’s where the market research is really important. And that’s where combing through those surveys and learning like oh wow, this message not only doesn’t resonate, but it’s actually really harmful or somebody this One person had a really negative reaction to this and like, that is anecdotal evidence, maybe I don’t need to change my entire funnel, but it never occurred to me that that, that that could bring that up. Because I’ve never had that that specific experience or that specific cultural experience or perspective or lens through which I see things. And if all of your the people when you’re sitting down and writing that one and only one person looks just like you, then you have some very homogenous, usually very whitewashed again, if you are a white person, copy and it doesn’t take into account people with different lived experiences people who might not have had the advantages or access or privilege or, or assets that you had access to. And you might need to change something about your offer, you might need to change something about how you position your offer, you may need to change something about your payment plan. And and that isn’t to say that people who are white have more money and can afford stuff and people who are non white don’t. I’m saying that often. Entrepreneurs and copywriters come from more advantageous backgrounds and fail to consider people that do not and therefore are comfortable using messages like Oh, my knees a mindset problem, take out a credit card. And oh, you don’t need to talk to your partner, that shouldn’t be a thing and Erin Ollila 36:30 very harmful. Yeah. So I think that that privilege, the perspective of privilege is, is one that’s you, it’s not easy to see if you’re if you’re it’s not being pointed out to you, right, because, you know, I like to be as helpful as possible in thinking that people don’t want to be harmful. But if you have never stepped out of outside of your own privilege bubble, you don’t understand anything about the different types of individuals than you are right, of course, an easy example is budgeting, budgeting and marketing, right? All you have to do is stop going out for your daily coffee, assuming that people have enough money to go out for a daily coffee, right? All you have to do is work harder, not thinking about, like the groups of people who are literally working two to three jobs and not seeing their children, but they still can’t even afford the apartment that they’re living in. And they’re about to get evicted. Right. And that’s, again, I like to think that people aren’t trying to be harmful. But we it is a responsibility of a marketer to be able to consider who is receiving our message, and how we present that to them. Because and yes, I mean, everything that you said, I just I’m just echoing at this point. But the other thing besides just copy that that’s helpful that plays into messaging is visuals. And I am like the hugest advocate of making sure that we are all using visuals like you know, images and our business that represent who we would like to work with. And not just ourselves. I’ve been saying this, like literally since the dawn of marketing, or at least that I’ve been involved in. But that doesn’t just mean like a person’s culture or, you know, sexual orientation. It also one thing people forget is ageism, right? Like, you know, they might not have anyone over the age of like 30 on their website, when it comes to things like that. Older people work like you know, they don’t just die out and fizzle out after the age of 30. I’m pretty sure eyes ability, like, exactly size ability. It’s like I mentioned before, of like, you know, certain types of medical factors factor into like the experiences that people have. So you, I think, so that I’m not picking on people too much, you are never going to be perfect at this, I am never going to be perfect at this. Trust me. I worry about doing things right all of the time, I just sit home and worry about it. But I’m never going to get it right perfectly all of the time. The best thing I think that you can do is try. So trying involves getting the research, trying involves consistently checking your research to make sure it’s still current. Trying involves doing the tiny things that seems small to you like images on your website, making sure there’s contrast on your website, all of those itty bitty things that show that you’re putting in the effort to be a more ethical marketer in 2023. But it’s, again, it’s not just the words that you’re using. It’s the message that’s getting put out there on everything that you’re showing the people who are viewing your business, Brittany McBean 39:39 just notice like Hey, where are some opportunities that I could do something different and don’t don’t run to change everything for optics and don’t like diversity does not automatically equal equity and diversity does not automatically mean that you’ve created a safe community for people absolutely. Don’t change your copy before you’ve changed your business values and structure and practices. I mean, that’s a whole that’s a whole nother thing. But the actually that is really, really important. I mean, there’s there’s a whole nother discussion to be had there but but I firmly believe that you should not, it is your responsibility to not make your copy and your messaging inclusive if you have not done that with your business practices and policy. Because if you tell people that your community or your product or your business is safe, and you have not done anything to make that so then you are perpetuating harm. So if you have not done that, I would rather you have copy that is not inclusive, and signaling to people, hey, this may not be a safe place for me, that’s okay, that’s information that they need to have. So they don’t make a decision. That’s not safe for them, then you having the right words, and then getting inside a community where they are tone policed, and they are outnumbered and there is nobody that that looks like them, and nobody that talks like them. And and nobody that like, listens to them, and that their experience is not accounted for. That’s, that’s not okay. So please don’t run to change things for optics. Diversity does not equal inclusion or equity, there are actual practices, and policies and policies have to equal practice, internal changes have to happen first, because external is is dangerous. It’s dangerous for people. I don’t forget, I don’t remember where that started. But Erin Ollila 41:45 no, that’s okay. But I think this is the more specific part of the conversation. But if we, if we make this a little bit more general now, right, like not even specifically to talk about values, but to talk about messaging, this is why repelling people is such a great thing. Like you can’t work with everyone, I don’t even care if it’s a product based business that like has a vast inventory, you can’t work with everyone, you can’t sell to everyone. So it is a service for you as the business owner, and it is absolutely a service for the audience or the leads that are looking at your business to repel people from your business. Whereas I think if we’re trying to play that, like pre 2023, and two current marketing game, I think that previously what was more important to marketers, whether it’s subconscious or conscious is making the sale and presenting be carefully crafted words in order for the conversion to happen. Were a big change. What we mentioned earlier on the episode is what your concern your consumers are too smart for you period. And what they can see through you and you, we talked about social proof. Well, guess what you lost it all when you when they see through you. And you could be a great person for them. And you might have great intentions. So if you approach your marketing in 2023, and you’re approaching it differently, where instead of trying to get everyone’s money, whether they are the right fit or not, you make it very clear who is not the right fit for your product service, offer, whatever, that’s going to help you and it’s going to help them Brittany McBean 43:30 well. And you know, what doesn’t help people is like a high refund rate, like, like that is money out of your pocket. Like it doesn’t matter what the sale is, if you’re giving that money back. And if people are talking poorly about your product, or somebody’s asking you Facebook group, like is this good? And was like no, it actually didn’t do anything or actually, like they said it was high touch but then they never showed up or like they showed up for the first two weeks. And then it actually got really big, which I that’s something I hear a lot actually is like, yeah, it was great. Then their brand got really big and they like they ghosted. It, you know, it’s so cliche to be like, oh, you can’t, if you speak to everyone, you speak to no one and you niche down, you make more money, all that stuff. But like, what is it’s actually it’s really, really helpful. I would love everyone listening, I would love for you to just really start being hyper aware at how you make buying decisions. And even more important than that, what you think and feel and do when you see marketing, because what is likely is that your audience has tried a solution before they have come across yours. So I’m going to say solution or product. So you have a product that solves a problem whether it is a course a program, a digital product, a physical product, you have a product that solves a problem, no matter how big or small that product that problem is. And so that product is a solution. And there are free solutions. There are paid solutions or DIY solutions. There are apps there are whatever there’s a million solutions. There’s so many that it is likely that your customer client has already tried a solution. And they probably had some offer solution that had some really shiny language that like roped him in, and it disappointed them otherwise, they would not be looking at your solution, this problem will be solved and like, they wouldn’t even be shown this this Facebook ad or they wouldn’t even have clicked on your landing page or or followed your Instagram or whatever it is. So in their mind, they have already discounted the big promise, the shiny claim, the like solve, like fix your life, live your best life like that is out because they’ve heard it and it didn’t work. So great, good news, we don’t have to use that, if you can be specific, and you can tell them, this is exactly how this works, it isn’t gonna fix your whole life, you’re not going to be living your best life. But this is going to fix this problem. And not only is it this is how these are the specific ways this is the mechanism. And these are the templates that you’re going to get or this is the feature. Short benefits are great. And we love talking about benefits over features. But people are starting to be really interested in features because they’ve tried other solutions. They’re aware of the features and why those features sucked and didn’t work for them. So like, these are those features. And this is the benefit of that feature, right? Be specific. And if you can say this isn’t for someone who XY and Z isn’t ready for this, once this thing doesn’t like this, that is now a copy that they have never seen before. All of a sudden, you are new and interesting and different. This isn’t about like, oh, be a great person and use this copy, like yes, that’s great. It’s wonderful. But it actually turns out what is starting to work better, what is starting to make you more money is actually the stuff that like, makes you a better person or like makes you a good human and, and like allows you to speak to your people with like dignity and respect and like involves their critical thinking and engages them in in a really respectful conversation. So you start to stand out by getting more specific by getting more transparent by saying like, hey, guess what, I’m not charging, you pay your tax, do the math, isn’t it the same things like payment plan, and this is the same thing. We’re like, hey, this program is absolutely not for you, if XY and Z and hey, this is the price, you don’t have to get on a sales call or like click another button. This is the price. Like if that isn’t for you, if you can’t afford this, like please don’t go any further. And yeah, maybe your top of funnel conversions just went down a little bit. But I would much rather have lower top of funnel conversion and like a 40% conversion rate on the bottom of the funnel or something like that. Just be aware that they have already seen and tried a solution that didn’t work. They are they are jaded, they are skeptical. They’re hesitant, which means they are looking at your copy, jaded and skeptical and hesitant. So all you have to do is say, No, this is this thing. It’s like this, this is how this works. This is what it can do. Here’s an example of how it worked for someone else to backup that claim. You don’t have to believe me, the person taking your credit card. This is what someone else said. And it’s actually not this like huge life changing transformation. It’s just this like actual attainable thing that you you can actually attain using this one feature, or whatever. Pay attention to how you’re noticing things. And a lot of people push back, they’re like, Well, I’m a marketer, like I, I know these things, because I know the tricks, right? Like I am aware like I listen to all this, like I know exactly, your people do, too, they just don’t have the same vocabulary. They’re not, they’re not like less intelligent than you because they don’t listen to the podcast. And actually, they’re more skeptical because they don’t know how it works. So like you as a marketer will look at a testimonial and be like, Oh, they just use their best testimonial, while your non marketing consumer looks at the testimonial and goes, That person isn’t real, or I bet they paid that person for a testimonial. It’s actually even worse. So just respect their intelligence. Like it’s just notice how you’re how you’re making buying decisions, and then have that similar conversation with those people. Erin Ollila 48:57 Yeah, I have a client and I don’t do her sales copy. She has another copywriter that she works with as well. But I see the the data because it reflects the work that I do with her. She changed her sales page for our program. She opens up a few times a year. And she made a very, very big statement before her like purchasing to say like, this is your not rate for this program. If and it was what I loved when I read it originally, before even seeing any data was it was clear. So like a lot of people say like you’re not ready if you don’t want to make the investment. And I’m like, No, it’s the Brittany McBean 49:30 same as like the pop up like do you want to save 10%? Or like No thanks. I love giving away my money. Erin Ollila 49:35 Yeah. And what I loved is that the reason she did this is because she saw that the clients that failed in her program were the ones who fit into these categories. And she was like, I don’t want to get a bad name because x y and z isn’t ready. So she disqualified them on the sales page before allowing anyone to purchase. And one thing that she does in her onboarding is like they have like her clients or her customers have to fill out like a questionnaire immediately and and of the questionnaire, it’s like what part of the sales page? what stuck out to you. And once the change happened, I’d say like not the immediate launch that she did. But the next launch. Almost every single person that purchased into her program mentioned that they saw the previous launches disclaimer knew that they weren’t ready, and that it made a big deal to them that they got themselves ready. So they could purchase again. So how huge I mean like that is ginormous, right? Like that, because what you’re doing is you’re saving them the money, you’re saving them in frustration you’re set, you’re giving them the keys they need to prepare, so that they can be successful later. Brittany McBean 50:42 Yeah, those are non negotiables. For me, like I have, I have those in my clients funnels, and like they have copyright at the end of the day, they can do whatever they want, but like I won’t work with them. Again, if they don’t like pricing transparent, I don’t care if your program is $55,000 or $200. Like that’s going on your sales page, we are having an FAQ This is what if I can’t afford this? And the answer will not be you can’t afford not to do this, the answer will be this is how much this costs. This is how students like if they get ROI, this is around when they get ROI. If they don’t get ROI, this is what this looks like this is the value if you can’t afford that, please do not take out a credit card, please do not press bought, you know, like these are non negotiables. It’s, it’s it’s not an option. Erin Ollila 51:22 So um, we could talk all day about this. But in order to kind of like wrap this up is is there any teeny tiny homework assignment you would give to the people listening? I think a lot of what we’ve told them are big things that they need to do, but something that they can quickly do to kind of like check themselves or like, work toward the right direction. Brittany McBean 51:40 Go look at your marketing or, or just like, you can start introspectively like I know, we always say like don’t start with what you think but like, I want to give you permission right now, if there’s anything that you’re doing in your marketing, because somebody taught you to, that you still feel really close about, you can go ahead and take it off, you can go ahead and stop telling people that your products worth $3,000. But they’re getting it for only $50. Like, if that feels gross to you, but you’re like but this person who knows what they’re doing taught me like, and just to be clear, you’re not dishonest or bad or wrong for doing that. Someone who you trusted, who knows what they’re doing taught you to do that. So you took their advice. That is smart. That is that’s you were using, you’re making an evidence based decision. But you can now say, Hmm, that doesn’t feel good. Why don’t I go ahead and stop doing that. So you can start there? Second thing would be like, Why don’t you take three people that you trust that represent people that you would like to work with? Whether they are buyers or non buyers? And say will you record a five minute loom video of you going through this sales page, or this website and just saying everything you think user testing is really expensive? Don’t pay for it? Don’t ever just everything you think like, like literally just don’t, don’t not say anything stream of consciousness, like I don’t care. If you’re like, I want to go fish, just everything you think. And then and you can even say I’m actually not even gonna watch it. I’m going to transcribe it and have someone else read it like, make that be true. But like if they it may be people who using one hold back? That could be something Yes, anecdotal evidence, no, we’re not reaching critical mass here. That’s okay. That’s a great way to just like, how might somebody else be perceiving something that I’m not thinking about. So that you don’t have to do both of those, those are just like two different things you can do. And the third thing that I will give you to do, that might be like a long term action item would be to embed some sort of feedback loop into your marketing, whether that is an onboarding survey, in which I would love or like on a thank you page survey, I would love you to ask the question. What’s the first thing you’re going to jump into? Or what was the reason that you bought? Then you can figure out what feature you would like to, to hone in on or the thing that is the most important to them? Or maybe the thing that matters to them the most right now. Maybe it is in a like nurture sequence, just like a one question survey or like a one question thing that they click and you can tag them and then you can kind of start to see which segments are bigger or the other, but just something that a system of collecting data, and then a system of going back and reviewing that data. So just a little reminder, once a quarter, we’re gonna go back and we’re gonna analyze that. That can be a more long term thing. Maybe that’s something like you and your team workout, but just like one data point, as a system, like a feedback loop as a system in your business. so that you can start to notice when things shift. Because if things look the same for a long period of time, cool, but when things start to shift, that’s a good indication of, hey, maybe it’s time to update our message. Or if your numbers start to shift, you can go into that feedback loop and say what’s changing? So those are three things that you can pick any one of. Erin Ollila 55:22 I love that so much. All right, final question. If you could meet anyone dead or alive for business or pleasure, who would it be? Brittany McBean 55:28 Okay, I’ve been really anxious about this question. So earlier, you said somebody picked Lizzo. And so that, I want to say that but now I’m anxious about nothing original. So Erin Ollila 55:39 you can join us in the Lizzo party. And maybe Brittany McBean 55:43 I’ll say Lizzo and Chris Pine because he’s my hall pass. Erin Ollila 55:46 Okay, perfect. Perfect. I love it. hall passes are completely allowed on this show. I mentioned my love of Trevor Noah far too often for probably, you know, a normal married woman’s Don’t you have your hall pass? I have mine. Brittany McBean 56:01 That’s it. No, no, no, no, I was I’m that’s who I’m with you. That’s, that’s a solidarity you. Erin Ollila 56:07 That’s a good one. This is this is the best episode ever. All right, everyone. Thank you so much for your attention. Brittany, thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate your time and everyone I will put all of the ways that you can get in touch with Brittany, learn from her hire her and her team. And you know, just good luck with making that marketing shift this year. I think it’s going to do great things for you and your business. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Top copy to me. If you enjoyed spending your time with me today. I would be so honored if you could subscribe to the show and leave a review. Want to continue the conversation. Head on over to Instagram and follow me at Erin Ollila. Until next time, friends