How Audience Research Helps You Write Spot On Website Copy with Nadine Nethery

A woman demonstrating impressive balance by holding a stack of books on her head. This is an episode of Talk Copy to Me about audience research featuring guest expert Nadine Nethery

Is your website copy based on assumptions? I think it’s safe to say that we’d all want our messaging to be grounded in audience research, but without doing voice of customer research surveys and interviews, it’s impossible to know whether the message you think you need to share is one your audience actually wants to hear.

Which is why audience research is a crucial part of any website copy project — or even a light copy refresh.

I invited friend and fellow copywriter Nadine Nethery onto the podcast to help me break down the importance of audience research — specifically as it relates to websites — and how to go about actually getting and using it. From strategic survey tactics to transforming insights into impactful website content, this episode is packed with invaluable tips to uplift your business’s messaging and strategy.

Copy says: Listen in to this episode of the Talk Copy to Me podcast

Here is what Nadine and Erin want you to know about audience research

  • Why you need audience research to influence your website copy
  • How voice of customer research also influences testimonials and SEO
  • How to do voice of customer research or audience research
  • Ways to entice your former customer and clients to actually complete your research survey
  • Who you should be interviewing to gather voice of customer research for your website
  • How and when to move from audience research surveys into customer interviews
  • How to analyze survey results and interview responses
  • How to translate the voice of customer research into actual website copy

Other podcast episodes and resources mentioned in this episodes:

Voice of Customer Research and Messaging with Melissa Payne

quotes from this episode of the Talk Copy to Me copywriting podcast

Quotes about audience research from Nadine and Erin

  • “I think people know that audience insight is so important…But I think sometimes there’s this gap between like, ‘Okay, I’ve captured insight or I plan to capture this information about my audience, But what do I actually do with it?'” – Erin Ollila

  • “The secret really is joining your audience’s feedback, their words, the emotions with your zone of genius.” – Nadine Nethery

  • “I save most of the writing until very close to the time that I’m actually delivering the copy because I spend more time researching and ruminating on the research that I have collected to determine what to say.” – Erin Ollila

  • “I just quickly worked out that, really going to the source and asking my customers’ or my clients’ audience made such a huge difference to how the copy landed, to the conversion rates, even to the feedback they received from, from their clients.” – Nadine Nethery

  • “Without audience insight, you’re just guessing.” – Erin Ollila

  • “What was going on in their business or in their life before they approached you? What made you stand out along the way? Then the…tangible wins that came from it, and whether they’re emotional, financial, increased leads, and increased conversions, whatever that might be… that really helps you.” – Nadine Nethery

  • “Being strategic again with your survey and really having to think about the structure before you send it out is super powerful and can really help you with your marketing strategy [and] your prelaunch content to work out the messaging gaps and those objections that need to be overcome.” – Nadine Nethery

  • “[Do] this audience research, and at the same time, [sit] down and [do] your site structure research. What pages do you want? How do you want to position those pages? And I think it’d be so much easier at that point, because then you have both sets of data, and it’s really just cutting and pasting.” – Erin Ollila

  • “Strategy will always be first in my heart, but strategy needs to bend with with the information that you have. So if you get really quality good research, you’re gonna have to bend your strategy to make sure that the data — the true data — it works with the strategy you’re building.” – Erin Ollila

Get out there and send a survey to your audience.

And don’t worry, Nadine has a freebie (see below for the link) that can get you started on this.

Meet this episodes guest expert on Talk Coy to Me

Nadine Nethery is an audience-driven copywriter and brand messaging strategist for female founders who want to intentionally attract, delight and retain their dream customers.

Her strategic take on audience research, copywriting and messaging turns every brand touchpoint into genuine connections that drive sales, celebrate loyalty and surround you with keen brand advocates who happily do the word-spreading for you.

Over the past 7+ years, Nadine has given global e-commerce success stories, game-changing startups and industry-disrupting service providers the words to shine and the strategies to build a sustainable business long-term.

Visit Nadine’s website and connect with her on Instagram. While you’re at it, grab her 10 Strategic Survey Questions freebie!

Get to Know the Host of the Talk Copy to Me Podcast Erin Ollila

Learn more about your host, Erin Ollila

Erin Ollila believes in the power of words and how a message can inform – and even transform – its intended audience. She graduated from Fairfield University with an M.F.A. in Creative Writing, and went on to co-found Spry, an award-winning online literary journal.

When Erin’s not helping her clients understand their website data or improve their website copy, you can catch her hosting the Talk Copy to Me podcast and guesting on shows such as Profit is a Choice, The Driven Woman Entrepreneur, Go Pitch Yourself, and Counsel Cast.

Stay in touch with Erin Ollila, SEO website copywriter:

Here’s the transcript for episode 101 on audience research with guest expert Nadine Nethary

NOTE: This podcast was transcribed by an AI tool. Please forgive any typos or errors. SPEAKERS Erin Ollila, Nadine Nethery Erin Ollila 00:04 Hey friends, welcome to the Top coffee Timmy podcast. Here we empower small business owners to step into the spotlight with their marketing and messaging. I’m your host, Erin Ollila. Let’s get started and talk coffee. Hello friends today i am so fortunate to be joined by my friend and fellow copywriter Nadine Neturei. You may know her for everything that she does helping people understand how to gain insights about their own audiences and the copy that they should use to craft their website. But what you may not know about Nadine, and I’m going to tell you right now is that she previously worked as a translator with the German and English languages traveling the world in the auto industry, and she’d go to motor shows and fancy product launches. Tell me everything about this. Nadine Nethery 00:59 Yeah, it’s like every copywriter I find gets into copywriting via Sunday to work. So yeah, you could probably pick up from accent I am originally from Germany. So I’m at the halfway mark. I’m just beyond 40 So I’ve lived in Australia for 20 odd years and grew up my first 20 years in Germany hence the accent I can’t check. I have always had the foreign languages so translator by trade and used to freelance for a while translating all sorts of fun things and TV shows he the biking and things like that when I moved to Australia and start working for a German automotive brand. We needed someone who could do the Juggle half English and jump. And yes, I got into automotive PR and traveled the world to all fun fancy. All sorts of fun and fancy places who actually all towels took Australian automotive journalists over there who Yeah, went nuts. Oh, fancy cars. And yeah, so it was sound, quite a cool lifestyle, pre kids, and quite Erin Ollila 02:04 quite different now to settling into this copywriting live. That’s 02:08 right, I went from, you know, business class flights to now being in my coffee cave most days, which I actually prefer, I have to say it’s so Erin Ollila 02:17 funny, because when we started talking about this one word that stood out which I was not even thinking in our pre chat, or before this was the word translate. And you know, I think what I’m really excited for you to talk about on the show is kind of gaining audience insight. But if you think about it, that’s kind of what you’re doing. You’re translating what your audience would think or say, and using those words within your copy. So like, again, I’m piecing things together here, but it’s kind of what you’re doing when you’re looking for audience insights and trying to learn what it is they need. And they want. 02:50 Yeah, absolutely. And picking up on some nuances as well. Because I have gotten very distinct my knees down evoke certain feelings as well. So it’s really working with the right words at the right time. And lugging them into all the right places, which Erin Ollila 03:08 I hope we cover today, because that’s the tough part, right is knowing no, you I think people know that audience insight is so important, like, you know, voice of customer research, and I think they get that. But I think sometimes there’s this gap between like, Okay, I’ve captured insight, or I plan to capture this information about my audience. But what do I actually do with it? You know, so today, we’re gonna be talking, I should probably say, like, within the lens of how to use this on your website, specifically. But before we do that, so I don’t discourage anyone know that you can absolutely use your voice of customer research and any audience research that you’re doing and other places, like social media, like sales pages, like email, so you should be using them in these places. But if by chance, Nadine, and I happened to go down the road, where we’re talking specifically about maybe website pages or sections of pages, just know that we do encourage you to kind of follow the same guide that we’re talking about, it doesn’t change much. But if we focus on website pages know that you can absolutely gather this research and use it elsewhere. And you should 04:21 yeah, thank you now so many opportunities come from research beyond the copy even, yeah, all about it. So just sparking ideas and even new products in the office, he says is all the things but that’s probably going a bit far in this context. Erin Ollila 04:38 So let me ask you a question. What made you excited to start to do more audience research like within your copywriting career, what made you go into the road? Now so often traveled to really research about your audience and your clients audiences I should say, so that you can write better copy for your own clients. Yeah, 05:00 the funny thing is copywriting is often associated with being creative. And just coming up with fancy statements and pulling stuff out of thin air, which I find couldn’t be further from the truth. Obviously, you have to be somewhat creative, you have a flair for words, but the secret really is joining your audience’s feedback, their words, their emotions, with your zone of genius Are you as the client is the business owner, and really marrying those in a way that gives you that instant nod when people read the copy. And it makes them feel deeply it really resonates with, make them feel like in, inside out, and who you’re speaking to, you know, their daily struggles and all the things that they wanted to fix that solved in their business or in their lives? And, yeah, very early on, you know, when you start out as a copywriter, and you try your best, yeah, before you’ve done all the right courses, that and all the right things to go. That’s how it works. Yeah, I just really worked out that really going to the source and asking my customers or my clients audience made such a huge difference to how the copy landed to the conversion rates, even to the feedback they received from, from their clients, and they would no longer waste time on Discovery calls, it helped them be much more prepared for those discovery calls actually landed because they really resonate with their message. And it just really made everything a lot more strategic or targeted to their dream customer. Erin Ollila 06:38 Yeah, I love that you say that, because I would echo that 100%. Like we, as writers, I think are imagined to be like slaving over a computer and sitting down and just like furiously writing me or notebook. And I don’t do that at all, I think I save most of the writing until very close to the time that I’m actually delivering the copy. Because I spend more time researching and ruminating on the research that I have collected to determine what to say. And I think that’s always kind of been such an eye opener for so many clients is you know, we’ll talk about like timelines or things like that, like, well, when can I expect to look at a draft? Or when should we strategize what goes on the page. And the research takes a good portion of the time, you know, whether that is because you’re doing something like sending surveys, and you have to wait to get them completed and then organized and then interpreted. Or if you’re doing client interviews, and you’re doing a similar process that I just mentioned, that takes a while, you know, and I think like you’re saying I’m just I’m literally echoing everything that you’ve said, I think what you’re saying is it’s like that’s where you do find out though, actually what they care about? Because you know, without audience insight, you’re just guessing. I can’t tell you how many leads or clients I’ve talked to, and will they you know, I’ll say, Tell me about your clients? And then I’ll ask them, what you’ve explained, is this your most recent clients like are these the people you’d like to work with? And a lot of times it boils down to either they’re describing someone like themselves at a different point in time, or they’re guessing at what they think that their clients need. And that can be dangerous. That’s where you mentioned, a lot of the times people will read and review a website and feel repelled or turned off by something if it’s just not acknowledging what their actual needs are. 08:29 Yeah, and you know, everyone is going to sound the same if you stick with your assumptions and your opinions. That’s why so many weddings, website chain websites, or some of the same they use the same words. It’s all topline, it’s all generic, up leveling and powering Erin Ollila 08:49 any word that I always you is because it’s been overused because people are copying each other. Yeah, 08:54 and it doesn’t really mean anything. It’s so airy fairy. So if you can turn those airy fairy words into tangible expressions that people actually use, and that means something to your clients, it is going to make everything so much more powerful. Erin Ollila 09:12 And I think would that sticking it also gives them the confidence, right? Because what I find a lot of my clients is, you know, especially when I have a client who’s so excited to publish the website, copy it, they’ll say like, I just want to share my website with everyone. And that I think is I think people listening might say, Oh, I don’t feel the same. Or if they do, yes, I celebrate you. But I hear that so often, like I’m nervous to send my website, I haven’t updated it and so long as it puts a point of shame. Yeah, I think once you’ve built this website where you know the research was done, well, you know that it’s going to land it gives you so much more confidence within your own business and your own marketing to want to keep pushing forward into a new level, because you feel good about it. Yeah, 09:55 and that’s the whole point. You know, you’re investing in graphic design to do brandy in a web design. So it’s a big investment and green for that to fall flat simply because you haven’t done the groundwork and the research. Yeah, can be heartbreaking. But doing the groundwork and doing all the digging, before putting it up there really makes all the difference. So Erin Ollila 10:19 we’re gonna just jump right in how do you do audience Intel? Like, how do you get audience Intel? And how do you do this research? 10:26 Yeah, so there’s various options, let’s assume you have been in business for a while. So you have clients to come in, I would absolutely incorporate very strategic questions into your onboarding, off boarding process. And that means you don’t have to back your customers, you know, three months after working with them to go back oops, forgot to ask you about a project or do you want so if it’s ingrained in your onboarding, onboarding processes, it is in the moment, it is always live. And that means as you go along, and as you have those different emotions and different experiences, working with you, you’re gathering that Intel get basically on autopilot as part of the process. If you haven’t done that, if you want to rehash, you can absolutely send up a CG survey to the fact. And it’s very important to really take them on that journey. So to help them relive the journey, what was going on in their business or in their life before they approached you what made you stand out along the way. So what made you different to all the other copywriters, graphic designers, you name it, then the immediate wins from working with you. So that excitement of launching the website and then very important as well. So those tangible wins came from it, whether the emotional financial, increase leads and increase conversions, whatever that might like. But that really helps you to piece together testimonials for your website, which are bad. But it also helps you then to Pete, that was making expression words and statements. So that’s so good that you can literally often get paste them into headings, subheadings, bullet point lists of things that bugging people or things people want to change in their lives. And yeah, so doing that strategically, strategically, see, you know, says here is the key and then actually sitting down and going through the data. Yeah, those amazing setup statements and really reading between the lines, how you can then incorporate that website. And we’ll be up ISIS, your marketing, Erin Ollila 12:44 you know, so much of what you just said, I want to comment on, one of which is that you said you could copy and paste it into your website. And it’s funny, you mentioned this, because I actually worked with a client about two weeks ago, doing some copy coaching. So they were working on most of their own copy. And they had hired me to edit and Audit and Review and guide them. And we had finally got some survey results back from their audience. And we were reviewing it together to talk about what could they use, and someone had said something so clearly in a fun way. And I said, oh, there’s a great heading. And my client was worried that it was like plagiarizing. And I was like, no, no plagiarizing is a problem. We would never want to steal like our own clients words and use them in a way that they didn’t allow us to. But if your client is filling out a survey, and they’re giving you insight, and they have agreed that you can use this insight for your own, like marketing materials or anything, use it because there are other people who are going to be longing for the same thing, or looking for the same thing or or using those words to do a Google search. Right? So many people tell me Oh, I do a lot of SEO research. How I that’s my that’s my favorite question. Because you’re going into SEO research with your own assumptions. If you haven’t done audience research, you cannot do your SEO research. Because I mean, you can, but you’re still doing it from an assumptions based research. So if you have these details from your clients, and you know how they speak, and how they search and what they’d say, and would not say it’s benefiting all of the things you said like testimonials, but other things, too, that they’re investing their money in, you know, like the SEO efforts. But the one key part that I want to stay on is the fact that you said the the way you’re strategic is the analyzation, right? Like, we wouldn’t just pull any old words into our headings and our sub heads or anything like that. We have to make sure that the ones that we’re using are actually important to the leads not the way that our current clients would say it, but but the state that they were in when they were considering hiring you. 14:56 Yeah, exactly. It needs to be highly relevant to It’s important to work with that’s why it’s important as well to not just survey anyone, you know, your family, friends, business buddies, they’re not necessarily your ideal customer. So then Ian, or rent differently to sending a survey out to, let’s say, you know, business owning women on their path to seven fingers, just a bad example, but couldn’t think of anything better. You know, like, it’s very specific. So you need to really survey the people you want to work with and who are perfectly positioned to invest in your services and get the best out of cars. Yeah, Erin Ollila 15:38 and I think it’s key to mention here that, you know, we talk about serving your audience or your clients. Sometimes if you’re shifting your business, it is actually beneficial to survey people outside of your audience and your specific clients. Hopefully, they’re in your own network. So the survey part is easy enough to do. You could ask other people in your network, do you know someone and describe the type of person you’d like to interview or survey? Who would be willing to answer a few questions, because you want to make sure, again, that you’re getting the quality data from the right people. So if you’re shifting your audience, you’ll have to also shift who’s answering the surveys. 16:17 Absolutely. I actually worked with a client recently who started off as a bookkeeper, she did really well fully booked, but wanted more time with her kids and, you know, lift her aides and really tap into her expertise. So she came from corporate accounting and wanted to go into their CFO space. So around that audience survey or her existing bookkeeping clients, because none of them really were in a position to invest. And step up to that next level, we posted a strategic survey, your business community, so I’m part of a female business, women from Unity. So I posted the survey in there, she posted similar communities, she was a part of, and how we structured that survey, because obviously, they’re not her existing clients, we had conditional questions in there. So really, to find out messaging gaps that we had to close different, even perceptions of CFOs. So we start at the very pointy question, you know, when they worked with the CFO, or are currently working with the CFO, whether they were potentially considering working with someone, or whether they had never heard it, or a CFO and had no idea what it was. And then based on their response, we branched out the survey into a different set of questions, it was so interesting to see the different perceptions, the false beliefs as well, around CFOs, what they do, how they can support you, we also had one extra question around price point. So it was interesting to see that beak gap. So people who didn’t have a clue, obviously, were much more worthy, and people who had worked with the CFO and got those amazing results. So being strategic, again, with your survey, and really having to think about the structure before you send it out is something super powerful, and can really, again, help you with your marketing strategy. You know, you pre launch content to work out the messaging gaps and those objections that need to be overcome, because you’re ready before you’re ready to pivot. That’s what your business to that next next niche. So even if you don’t have existing funds to survey, it is such a worthy exercise to do just to give you the confidence, that direction, clarity, how to show up. Yeah, I Erin Ollila 18:35 agree. We’ve talked a lot about surveys specifically. But do you ever decide that you want to do interviews instead of surveys? And if so, is there like a specific reason that helps you make that decision, 18:47 I usually start with a survey. And then I quickly pick up people who completed just a tick a box, or people who are genuinely coming forward with super generous angles and insights. So I usually pick a few different angles and interesting perspectives that I want to explore further. The book course based on ads are really to to explore different avenues, and interesting angles that I might might not have considered in my strategy to date. Erin Ollila 19:19 Yeah, and I do the same exact thing I didn’t at first, to be honest with you before I would skip the survey. And I would go straight to interviews and I would only do a survey if I felt like I didn’t get the information I needed from the interviews. But I found that they were very limiting because again, who is picking the interviewees is the client, and they may choose to pick their clients that they liked the best, or their clients that were more vocal about positive things. But I also I often found clients that were willing to be more honest, were even if they weren’t extremely positive, were more helpful because there could be things that they said that I could adjust maybe within the copy. So I wouldn’t write, obviously something that seemed a little negative. But I would then be able to take that to my client and say, like, so how is your delivery time, like, you know, like, one of the things that was mentioned was that that someone was a little concerned about delivery time. And then the client may say something to the effect of you, I’m so glad you say that, because now we have this process. And it’s a proven process. And that might have been something we didn’t talk about between me and my client, which is a huge selling factor. When you can present things such as frameworks and processes and methods for doing things, it sets you up to be more of the expert. So I think that that was kind of the big shift for me, when I started finding out that there were insights that I was missing. I went straight to survey first and then like you mentioned, there’s always I do find it remarkable that there’s always a few survey respondents that’s share something that you would not have assumed. And then it’s that’s who I will always go to first. You know, like, there’s always there’s always going to be an easy client who was willing to like, step in and share praise. And those are great for their own reasons. But I do really like to find those those random. I wouldn’t say strangers in this case, but random people that that surprise you a little, because it’s where I think you get a lot of the good insight about your audience. Yeah, 21:23 absolutely. And as he said, Often when I present my list, let’s talk to these people. Oh, interesting. I wouldn’t have picked them. Yeah, I’ve picked them. Because XYZ it makes sense in some Yeah, different angles, different perspectives. Interesting takes on things that just make me curious. Erin Ollila 21:42 Yeah. And I’d love to know how you go about convincing people to do this. Because this is something that I think we have to adjust for copywriters specifically have to adjust their approach, depending on the client and the client’s business, you know, but when it comes to enticing their clients to actually complete a survey, do you have any methods that you found to be easier than others? You know, I think that one easy thing that most people will say is Oh, well, we could enter you to win a gift certificate or a discount, which is fine. There’s nothing against that. But I don’t think it’s always necessary. And I find that there are some other creative ways that you can get people to participate. So I don’t know if you have any suggestions for like how to encourage people to actually complete these things. I 22:28 do like the gift certificate or little handout that you give away, depending on your audience, obviously, but once worked really well lately is even a donation to their favorite charity. So that has been popular. And when it comes to response rates, in general, I find brands who will have a very active and engaged community get a lot higher uptake. And then sometimes clients who are going will have hundreds of responses, because we’ve got really good results for clients. They’re the ones that then struggle. And I’m quite surprised that the lack of response. So it’s really important to not only check in with your customers and with your times where you need something from them. So really keep checking in with them as well. So it’s that, oh, my god, now she wants something she checks in with us. So keep that conversation going with your clients beyond surveys and wanting favors, which I find then get convinced, you know, it easily swayed to actually complete that survey. Yeah. And Erin Ollila 23:33 I think that’s also when it comes to the strategy behind the survey, which you might be able to speak because I know you actually have an entire product that you sell in your shop for people who are looking to do this on their own, not just when they hire you to do this. But is there a certain length that survey should be so that people don’t feel like, you know, they have to take like a standardized test in order to complete these things. And, you know, any specific approach that they should use when sharing the survey with their audience? 24:00 Yeah, absolutely. So it’s tempting to add extra questions I haven’t had so often where I present the survey, just as a final check to my clients. Can we just add this question, and I’ve always been wondering risk. So the more questions you add in, the more annoyed people get. So you need to set very clear expectations, how many questions are waiting for them? I wouldn’t go beyond 10. To be honest, that would be my maximum. But yeah, set the expectations. You know, it’ll take you roughly five minutes or 10 questions for you. And really set the expectations like what is in it for them to complete this survey. So really make them feel great to be hand picked to complete. This survey also shows that anything they share with you will ultimately help them in the future if they choose to work with you again, because it helps you improve your business your process and really shift how you serve your clients in the future. So rather than just stopping a survey, it’s really about It’s gave me feel part of something special and part of your journey that tends to get replaced by in. Erin Ollila 25:06 Yeah, I always try to remind my clients and this, I preach this a lot in my testimonials course, but I try to remind my clients that like, people want to help people bottom line, it’s the reason that it doesn’t happen is that there’s not often easy route for them to do it. So like, if you’re able to share a survey that could be done very quickly, you know, you’ve got that one click out of an email until you can click into a few answers or type out a few answers, not that you’re going to a website, and then the website moves you to the survey. And then the each survey page, you know, takes like two clicks to move through. Yeah, if you make it easy for them, they’re going to want to help you like unless there was a bad client experience. And obviously in that case, we should not be asking clients that maybe didn’t have the best experience to complete things like this, which I have had people do. And I was like, shocked when I stepped on an interview call one Oh, that person was desperate to tell me their experience. And I was like, I think this is more of a therapy session. Audience Intel session, you know, hate Stranger things have happened. But I think that when we when we when we ask for help from our audience and our community, like people really do want to give you that feedback. So it’s really just about making it as easy as possible for them. And they will step up and share those things 26:31 exactly one creative way, as well depends on how many survey responses you need is sending a personal video message, as we’re inviting them to complete a survey. So I personally use on your own for that. So you can record a little personal message and then have linking straight through the survey. Or if they open it on desktop, you can even embed the Google Form sprout underneath the video. So again, making it super easy and adding that personal touch. So explain your face to face what’s in it for them. And that you would be super grateful if they take two minutes at a time. So just be their authentic genuine and really set the scene. They set the expectations up front. Erin Ollila 27:14 Yeah, and do it, which is like the biggest advice like do the audience research because I think that, again, it is normal to feel anxious about asking for people’s help. It is normal to feel like you don’t want to bother people with things like this. But again, you’re not bothering them. Everyone has their own ability to make the choice whether they’re going to help you or not. Even if they choose No, that might have nothing to do with you. It could be they forgot, I forget everything. Okay, guys, I forget everything they could have forgotten, they could have been too busy that week. But if you don’t ask you will quite literally never know, in this case, especially when it comes to audience and you’re going to be stuck with your audience assumptions. So put yourself out there and make it a point to make this something that you do regularly in your business. Not too often, but regularly enough that if there are any service changes, or product changes or audience changes that it feels natural to go back and say, Hey, would you mind, you know, answering a couple of questions for me? 28:19 Yeah, absolutely. You know, I just keeps your messaging fresh as well, and keeps all the things that are happening in the world, you know, in the bigger picture as well, because let’s face it, research that you did half a year ago, might look very different nowadays, with recessions, and totally all the things happening. So your messaging is never finished, you’re finished, it really needs to shift as your audience evolves as well. Erin Ollila 28:46 Agreed. All right. So we’ve put the surveys out there. And let’s let’s talk about this world that exists imaginary world where we have sent out surveys and we have received results. You mentioned that we need to be strategic with analyzation. So how does someone sit down in the right mind frame to analyze the results? Or what should they be looking for? before they can even use those results to know that they’re getting the right quality and the right type of answers from their audience. And so I 29:15 organized the Intel into buckets, as I like to call them so get nothing fancy just a spreadsheet that I organized into paint blends, objections, false beliefs, because they get a hold people back objections, sticky terms as I like to call them. So these are the statements that I just saw go into you can copy paste them, things about them. So if it’s anything client surveys, so things that make them different from everyone else, and then also testimonials. So usually there’s one question in there. If you had to solve it or sentences what it means to work with me, then this could be it. So along the way, I just Add to those buckets and pick up themes as well. So if a certain word pops up all the time, I will highlight that and keep track of it. And, yes, I go through all this puts me responses sorted into a little buckets, and then sort of rank it by into a little hierarchy. So what’s that stand out and come up with the messaging structure from there. So usually, before I catch up clients for this strategy session that we have to keep up our project, I already have gone through their audience research. And that gives me the perfect opportunity to see how clear they are on their audience. Because often, as we said, it’s based on assumptions they’ve have, they have actually never surveyed their audience before. unpinned, it really brings up so many moments. So often, the perceived point of difference that they’ve been marketing to and speaking to in all their messaging is couldn’t be further from their actual point of difference and why people choose them. It’s really bringing them on board with the strategy, the messaging that I have in mind. And yeah, those kickoff strategy sessions often come with so many aha moments, and so many shifts, and so many, oh, my God, I didn’t know I get all this with the copy. Because it just makes things fall into place. And really helps them understand their audience on a on a whole new level. So the funny thing is, you know, when you first talk about audience researching, okay, cool, let’s just do this survey. And then it happens. And that is where the magic lies. Now I understand and I’m still going to keep keep doing it, because it is so powerful. Which Erin Ollila 31:43 in your case, it’s that’s the best way to start a working relationship, because you, you prove your customer experience, right from the get go. Like you prove the value you’re bringing to your clients, by showcasing what their audience says feels and thinks about them. So it’s easy for them to like, immediately just be in a good place when they’re working with you. Because you’re showing that you understand, you know, what they need and and how to get there based on the research that’s actually been done. So if somebody have the results, they’ve done some analyzation themselves. And they they maybe feel good about certain terms or certain messages, how do they then take that though, and translate, translate that to the website page? Do you have suggestions on, let’s say, maybe starting page by page and saying, Okay, I have a homepage, let me go and search through my best research for for messages for the homepage. Okay, now I’m on the about page or wood, you could do a completely opposite approach, and maybe take the research and then place it on pages, as you go through them, I 32:50 would go into the copy as I go through. So site evolves organically, because, as you know, every page has got a structure and has got story arc and you know, leading up to that call to action that you want them to take. So it’s really going with the flow and seeing how you take the reader on that journey. And then kind of those bullet point lists that speak to transformation will address the pain points. And really, yeah, picking and choosing, that’s a good yeah, audience research going back to your spreadsheet guy called, so we need to really talk to the translation, you know, comes from working with me, where are we looking at, you know what translation yet. And then UT is you have all these tangible wins. And it just means no matter where you are in your copy on your website, you can simply refer back to it, take the best ideas, which Erin Ollila 33:47 I think is why it’s also very important to know strategically what pages you have and what you’re going to say on the pages, either before or during the time that this survey is happening, right? The questions that you’re asking through the survey may be some more standard questions and in gaining their insight. But if you’re not thinking about how that will kind of transition to the page, then you’re kind of be lost when it comes time to match them together. So part of it is doing this audience research. And at the same time sitting down and doing your site structure research, you know, what pages do you? How do you want to position those pages? And I think it’d be so much easier at that point, because then you have both sets of data. And it’s really just kind of like cutting and pasting. Right? If you think about like a craft project as like a kid or even as an adult, right? If you’re gonna make a collage or something, you’re taking your client’s words, you’re taking your own words, and you’re just kind of adjusting until you get that pretty picture that you’re looking for. Yeah, 34:46 absolutely. And same goes for the page structure as well. So, you know, let’s say you pick up a lot of objections around it. You know, you need to make sure you’ve got an FAQ section on your service page to help them address those or if you if your audience coming back to you our deal values and the way you show up, is it worth having a section on your blog page that really calls out your brand comments and your values and how they play into your offer. So it’s, it’s picking up again, the themes and the things that are really important to your audience and how we can package them in a way that that’s super crystal clear, to pick up for potential leads who want to want to work with you, and really turn it into that awesome selling position, because it’s just in tune with who you are and your zone of genius and why people write you. Erin Ollila 35:39 Yeah, and I think it’s also being open to the you know, having some wiggle room maybe for the things you might not have known could be there. I love that you said FAQs because it brought to mind how FAQs are almost always assumption based, right? And I love frequently asked questions I do they have so much value. But But one person pointed out to me that I had worked with they said, to be honest, Aaron, and it was they had so much shame when they were saying this. They like to be honest, Aaron, no one has actually asked me these questions. But I know that they’re probably wondering them. And I was like, yes, yes, you have permission to use these as like frequently asked questions. Everyone is just a title. Let’s just put that out there. Let’s just call them questions for the conversation that we’re having. But if you have a survey, and you’re getting results for people, maybe if we’re talking back to the question of like, Where were you like, what were you dealing with, before you decided to work with? Whatever business it is that you’re doing the survey for? Those types of things that that come up within those questions might give you some insight, the two frequently asked questions. So maybe you’ve done your page plans, you’ve done your site structure, and you don’t even think of having a Frequently Asked Questions page on one of your services pages, let’s say, Well, if you find these same things keep coming up throughout your audience survey. That’s how you know it’s important to add one. So I think I think the flexibility of either removing something from your website architecture plan that just doesn’t need to be said, or adding something that you might find value of within your survey result is really important to like strategy will always be first in my heart. But strategy needs to bend with, with the information that you have. So if you get really quality, good research, you’re going to have to bend your strategy to make sure that the data, the true data, works with the strategy you’re building. 37:33 Yeah, absolutely. And that’s why you know, even website templates, there’s a place for templates to get you started and to get you thinking, but they’re not setting concrete. So you be proactive and question things. And then does this apply to my business? Does it really add value? Or is it lacking something? So, you know, always start with the data and your audience, your audience basically does the heavy lifting for you? Let’s face it, like, Erin Ollila 38:01 Thank you, everyone. Thank you, everyone. Thank you audiences out there. 38:05 Thank you people for doing our job. It’s just a matter of giving them the space to stand up and come forward with the information and then knowing how to use it. Yeah, I Erin Ollila 38:16 have had clients ask me before, like, Well, how do you do this? Like, how do you Aaron, do this? And I’m like, I don’t want to trivialize the work that I do. But here’s what I do. I asked good questions. And then I listened carefully. And then I take the answers, and I share them with you. Like, again, it’s not trivial trivializing the effort that we’re putting in. But it really is about making sure that the questions are good that you’re asking and listening carefully to the answers, because people will always share with you if you’re asked if you’re encouraging them to and it’s just being a good listener, I think. 38:53 Yeah, absolutely. And reading between the lines, sometimes yes, you know, they give you a heat. And then if you are able to, to dig deeper into that next level. They had the answers basically there. Yeah, Erin Ollila 39:07 one thing we didn’t mention that I should say quickly that I don’t do all the time. Now, I’m kind of questioning maybe, if I should, but one thing I did once was I had a client who was really struggling with not putting every question they could possibly ever ask on a survey. So we really called it down to a very short survey, but the final answer was, if I have a question, based on your responses, May I follow up via email because they didn’t want to do like one on one video interviews with their clients or wasn’t the right audience for something like that? And we did. We followed up quite a bit with additional questions. And I think actually, that was really helpful because it’s how you mentioned kind of reading between the lines. There were things that we were really hoping people could expand on and people replied right back right away quick, like something that could be done in a sentence or two. So not that I know that that is the best approach for everyone but you know, to give your offer a wiggle room might be helpful. Yeah. 40:02 Ideal? Because yeah, sometimes it’s just that one follow up question to need to go even further. And Erin Ollila 40:09 again, I have no data on this. It was it was a one time experience everyone, but I thought I would share it. Alright, Nadine, before we let you go, I have the final question. And that is if based on our conversation, if you could share one small homework assignment with my audience, 40:25 what would it be? Yeah, actually sending a survey. And looking at it, that’s how easy it is. Because we all have a huge to do list and audience research. For some reason. As much as we know, it’s important. It always goes to the background. So I actually have a freebie on my website, which makes it super, super simple. It’s actual questions that I use in my one on one client surveys, there’s 10 of them, you can swipe them, plug them into your favorite survey tool, and you can start gathering data and having those aha moments for yourself. So what I want you to do send that survey, put away some time to actually look at the responses and see how you can implement that in your copy various places in your marketing to really have impact. Yes, Erin Ollila 41:17 absolutely. I and I think like you said, it’s sometimes we just have to do it. So this is a great push to be able to get out there and do it. Right, Nadine, thank you so much for being here today, everyone. We will be back next week where we’re going to talk about research again, but instead of your audience research we will be here to talk about competitor research. So don’t forget to join us back here on the show next week. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Top copy to me. If you enjoyed spending your time with me today. I would be so honored if you could subscribe to the show and leave a review. Want to continue the conversation. Head on over to Instagram and follow me at Erin Ollila. Until next time friends

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