How much copy do you think goes into visibility opportunities, such as podcast guesting?

Well, at first glance, it might not seem like a lot. If anything comes to mind, maybe you’d think of something like a professional bio that you’d send to the host.

But you need a lot more than a voice to get podcast guesting opportunities.

There’s actually quite a bit of writing that goes into podcast guesting, like the actual podcast pitch, form completion, social media posts to share episodes, and more.

Oh, and don’t forget about writing landing pages and lead magnets to help turn listeners into email subscribers, and finishing that project off with an email nurture sequence, too.

In this episode of the Talk Copy to Me podcast, I’m chatting with Angie Trueblood, founder of the Podwize Group and host of Go Pitch Yourself, about how to land podcast guesting opportunities with foundational research and solid copy.

Here’s what Angie and Erin have to say about podcast guesting and how strategic copy can get you booked

You heard it here. Quotes about podcast guesting from Angie and Erin

“A lot of [podcast pitching] is doing this foundational writing work before you ever get to the point of sending a pitch or even having a specific show in mind to pitch. It’s really strategically thinking about “What are my goals with this outreach strategy? Who am I trying to get in front of? and What is the type of content that they want to hear from me that I can pitch to a podcast host and ultimately get in front of this new audience?” – Angie Trueblood

“It’s not just figuring out what the listener wants to hear. It really involves writing compelling enough copy that the host recognizes that you were pitching an idea the right way….that you’re not going to be a walking billboard on their show. And that the topic that you’re pitching is very relevant to their audience.” – Angie Trueblood

“I think that we forget when we’re doing things for our own marketing, that we have to talk to the person and explain how it’s beneficial for them and not how it’s beneficial for us.” – Erin Ollila

“When you are going to go pitch podcasts as a visibility effort, you need to do the research on — what types of podcasts do I want to be on? Who is this host? And what really makes them tick? What are they looking for?” – Erin Ollila

“If you want solid and strong copy, spend the time doing the research before you spend the time during the writing.” – Erin Ollila

“I think as a host, if you can’t answer one question for me [on a guest form], what is it going to be like to interview you?” – Erin Ollila

“I thought over the past couple of months, well, where do people really interact with me the most…and it’s on my podcast. That is actually where I do most of my sharing for my guest episodes now. It’s almost like a free promo spot that I give the host whose show I was a guest on. It’s in the beginning of my episodes, I share, “Hey, I was a guest on [the show]. Here’s what we talked about. Here’s why you should listen.” But that’s copy. And I write that ad spot out before I ever even think of saying it in the episode.” – Angie Trueblood

Angie’s homework assignment encourages you to shorten your podcast guesting bio

Try to take your long bio or your about page and come up with a one-sentence bio that you can use in your next podcast pitch. Once this is done, you’ve done a lot of the heavy lifting for strategy.

If Angie could meet anyone, she’d meet:

Pat Flynn

Learn more about your guest expert:
As the founder of The Podwize Group and host of the Go Pitch Yourself podcast, Angie Trueblood uses her entrepreneurial spirit, innovative thinking, and super-connector powers to help business owners grow their authority, network and revenue through podcast guesting.

Personally, Angie is passionate about normalizing the voices of women in leadership positions, which she feels privileged to play an active role in through her work. When she’s not knee-deep in the podcasting space for work, she can be found spending time with her family and friends in Richmond, VA, bingeing the Smartless podcast, and attempting to develop a love of bourbon (a relatively failed effort, at this point).

Reach out to her via:

The Podwize Group website

The Go Pitch Yourself podcast

LinkedIn

Instagram

And join us in the Podwize Co-op community

If you’re reading in early September 2022, make sure to join Angie’s 5-in-5 pitching challenge to up your podcast guesting game!

Learn more about your host:

Erin Ollila believes in the power of words and how a message can inform – and even transform – its intended audience. She graduated from Fairfield University with an M.F.A. in Creative Writing, and went on to co-found Spry, an award-winning online literary journal.

When Erin’s not helping her clients by writing strategic and SEO website copy, you can find hosting the Talk Copy to Me podcast and podcast guesting on shows such as Profit is a Chose, She Built This, and Photo Business Help. Unlike Angie, Erin has already developed a love of bourbon, and will happily talk for hours while sipping away.

Stay in touch with Erin Ollila, SEO website copywriter:

Want to know more about podcast guesting? Here’s the transcript for episode 029 with Angie Trueblood

NOTE: This podcast was transcribed by an AI tool. Please forgive any typos or errors. SPEAKERS Angie Trueblood, Erin Ollila Erin Ollila 00:04 Hey friends. Welcome to the top coffee Timmy podcast. Here we empower small business owners to step into the spotlight with their marketing and messaging. I’m your host, Erin Ollila. Let’s get started and talk coffee. Hello friends today on the podcast I am excited to introduce you to Angie Trueblood. She is the founder of the pod wise group and the host of one of my favorite podcast, which is go pitch yourself. I met Angie a while back in the business world and I’m really just so grateful for her friendship. And what I love so much about Angie is how free she is with the information and sharing and really wanting to promote other women in this online business world. So that way they can be more visible and grow their audience with the right people. Angie Trueblood 00:59 Today, Erin Ollila 01:00 we’re going to talk about copying unexpected places specifically as a podcast guests. But like usual, I really want to introduce Angie with something that you may not know about her. And for Angie, it’s that she was obsessed with professional wrestling when she was younger. So Angie, welcome to the show. Tell me everything. Angie Trueblood 01:23 I don’t even know how to follow that. Aaron, you want me to tell you everything about pro wrestling? My obsession with it. Erin Ollila 01:29 I want to know about your obsession with it. I do not want to know about pro wrestling in general. But what turned Angie Trueblood as a child into a pro wrestling fan, and are you still a pro wrestling fan? Angie Trueblood 01:41 Okay, so no, I mean, my dad did. So my parents divorced when I was two like I would visit him on the weekends. And my dad was in to pro wrestling. So I started just watching it when I was visiting his house. I literally ended up as a member of the Rock and Roll Express fan club. I had a life sized poster of them in my bedroom. And I also got a wrestling ring, a small one with action figures for Christmas. I was legit into it. There was a kid in my fifth grade class who had a crush on me. And I knew he did because he drew me a picture. He was very artistic. But he drew a picture of a wrestler and gave it to me. Erin Ollila 02:26 Oh my gosh, love, love love right there. That is so cute. So I’m very impressed with your dedication with that life science poster and an official member. How long did you watch pro wrestling? Did it fizzle out at a certain point in your life? Angie Trueblood 02:41 I mean, I don’t remember watching it in college. And I’m sure my mom was like, Are you kidding me? This is what she watches my dad’s house and then she brings back all of paraphernalia back to her house. So probably not past high school. Erin Ollila 02:56 All right. So if you don’t know Angie, at this point, welcome to the world of Angie Trueblood. This is the perfect introduction to how fun and spunky and wonderful and what a great personality she has. I mentioned when I introduced her that I really appreciate how handed Angie is and really trying to like educate and teach people. And while she is a business friend, I am also a member of her pod wise Co Op group, which is the coolest place to hang out in the whole wide world. But if you’d actually like to know what it is it is a group for people who are want to learn how to become better podcast guests to get more opportunities in podcasting. And there’s many of us that actually our podcast host as well in the pod wise group. And one thing we talk about from a very first grade level approach to podcasting is what happens within the podcast pitch. I think that could be a great place for us to start to kind of talk about all of the copy that actually goes into podcasting, when people come to you. And they want you to either help them with their visibility from a done for you standpoint, or they want to learn from you about being a guest. What do you talk to them about when it comes to prepping to pitch for podcasts, Angie Trueblood 04:14 a lot of it is doing this foundational writing work before you ever get to the point of sending a pitch or even having a specific show in mind to pitch. It’s really strategically thinking about what are my goals with this outreach strategy? Who am I trying to get in front of and what is the type of content that they want to hear from me that I can pitch to a podcast host and ultimately get in front of this new audience. But it’s not just figuring out with that listener wants to hear it really involves writing compelling enough copy that the host recognizes that you were pitching an idea for the right way. Isn’t that you are not going to be a walking billboard on their show. And that the topic that you’re pitching is very relevant to their audience, there’s tons of coffee duck into the different parts of the pitch. I mean, we can go over whatever part of that you’re interested in Erin Ollila 05:19 that that was super helpful. And I think that was never like an eye opener for me as well, even when I started my own pitching journey. Because as a writer, I’m used to the idea of speaking to the you know, the second person or talking directly to the needs of the audience, but I think that we forget when we’re doing things for our own marketing, that we have to talk to the person and how it’s beneficial for them, and not how it’s beneficial for us, which is, you know, what you just said, but you know, as a guest, you think, well, I want to be more visible, I want to be on this person show, because it’s a great opportunity for me, that’s not going to get you opportunities, you have to think how can I give an opportunity to the podcast host to give them a topic that would be really exciting to their audience, or to bring new insight on something they’ve already talked about before. So I really like the idea of thinking, before you write anything at all, for coffee, like what’s the strategy behind it? And how can you when you do sit down to do that copy, address the hosts in a way that’s really marketed toward how you can help them and not yourself. Angie Trueblood 06:25 It’s interesting, because as I was preparing to talk about this yesterday, I wrote a pitch template for one of our new concierge clients. So those are the clients who we do all of the prep work, all of the pitching all of the follow up, they get to show up and be their wonderful selves on interviews. And so we had previously had our strategy call where we dig into that client gets some ideas and what they’re an expert at what their goals are. But that pitch template, the way that we have it for our concierge clients, it’s really divided into lots of different parts. So I always do the bio first. And we’ll do an extended bio, a large one that the host could maybe read at the beginning of an episode or that you would include on your one sheet or in information that they might share in their show notes. So the bio is a big chunk of it. And then I go into that connection paragraph. So when we write a pitch, the first paragraph is really, I think back to like fifth grade, when I wasn’t at a wrestling match. If I was writing a letter to someone, it is like that friendly greeting, I’m writing to you, here’s a little bit about who I am, here’s why I’m reaching out to you. And so there are connection points that we have to hit in that first paragraph. And then I do a little bit of their bio. So we pull out not that whole three to five sentence bio, no host needs to know all of that at that moment. So we pull out maybe a sentence of their bio. And then I deep dive into the topics. It is an interesting, it made me think as I was doing it, it made me recognize more of the process that I take and it is very, I go in a particular order, I flesh out the topics more generally at the at the top of the template, and then I really go into deep diving into each of those, once I can see the full picture. And then at the end, it’s a closing and adding in some more links so that the hosts can get a good sense of who they are. So it’s a high level overview. Erin Ollila 08:24 Yeah, that’s so helpful. So just a quick review so I can make sure I didn’t miss anything. When you write a patch, you’re including in the pitch of what you need to write what would be your bio connection paragraph deep dive into the topics as well as obviously a quick overview of what the topics might be, as well as links to how they can learn more about you and was there one more thing that I’m missing Angie Trueblood 08:46 so the bio, we put that at the very end of the pitch, but my creative process and coming up with all of this is I craft the bio first because that gives me a really big picture idea of who we’re talking to how we want them to stand out when others connect with them. And so normally clients have a bio coming in and I’m like that’s cool, let me have it and then we’ll change it because we make it more strategic for what we are trying to accomplish on their behalf but in between that friendly greeting and the introduction to the topic is like a one sentence synopsis of who they are and what they do and we do actually link to their website in that in between section as well Erin Ollila 09:29 so helpful so funny that you mentioned this because a lot of the times my clients especially when I’m doing a website projects or brand messaging will be like Aaron what is my bio I need a bio as if it is this create once and live with it for the rest of your life type of introductory paragraph on the person and I really tried to like reset the mind frame that like you should have multiple Biles for very many reasons. Great creative third person bio, but what’s your bio that’s like an elevator Pitch bio. What’s your bio when you’re introducing yourself as a service provider? If you are one, you know, what’s your bio if you’re introducing yourself as someone who’s founded a company or created products because some service providers are living in both worlds, they may be course creators. They may be people who do Done For You services. And we need to be able to take these types of vials and adjust them to the situations we’re in. So when we look at podcast guesting, it’s really true that you cannot necessarily have the same bio even for the guesting that you’re doing, you might want to do like Angie says create like a larger bio that helps you understand what the key points are that you want to be visible in. Angie Trueblood 10:43 But you know, depending on the topics or the type of industries you’re approaching, you may need to adjust that shorter one to two sentence little overview on who you are to match what they’re looking for. Yeah, and that’s the important part of the copy and a pitch. Because all of our pitches are different. They all start out from the same basic template, even in the closing sections to where we’ll share links to previous interviews, will switch out what interviews we share based on whether we think that host might know one of the hosts that our client was on, if we’re pitching and the show is a male hosted show, we’ll make sure to include some links to male hosted interviews that our client has been on. So the whole thing is strategic in helping bridge that cold connection in order to warm the host up and not feel I want them after they read the pitch to have a very good sense of who our client is, Erin Ollila 11:44 yes, super important. And it brings me back to everything I say all of the time when it comes to writing, copy any type of copy. And it’s researched before writing, if you want to maybe get thoughts out of your brain do what I call a brain dump and jot things down that cool. Do that first if you want, but you have to remember, what you’re creating is really just that it’s taking ideas from one place and putting them elsewhere. When you are going to go pitch podcasts as a visibility effort, you need to do the research on what types of podcasts do I want to be on? Who is this host? And what really makes them tick? What are they looking for. And then again, like we just talked about one key facet, which is the bio, you start from a potentially larger bio that maybe you’ll have as a template, but you have to then take that and adjust it for how you present yourself. So all of these things, even what Angie mentioned about like the connection paragraph, will how can you connect with them? Do they talk about bacon all the time and you want to share your love of bacon? Did you go to the same college, all of these little key connection factors you have to figure them out? Before you can write a connection paragraph. And that’s research, right? So if you want solid and strong copy, spend the time doing the research before you spend the time during the writing. Yeah, Angie Trueblood 13:01 and there’s ways I think there’s a lot of people who are podcast guests, and I had an interview with a fellow Co Op member. And she said she had taken a training before she discovered our team. And it said that you needed to listen to three interviews from the host before you pitch them, which is bananas. If you want to be consistently pitching yourself to enough shows per month, none of us have time. I mean, we pitch our clients to between 12 and 15 shows a month, there’s no way we’re listening to three full length episodes. But there’s ways that you can do research by looking if they have good copy on their website, then you should be able to tell exactly who that host is, who they serve, what things are relevant to their audience. And so we’re able to do research in a quicker fashion by actually like reading the copy that they’ve put out in different places. Erin Ollila 14:00 Yeah, and I mean, there’s so many ways to do this research, right? Like it, let’s say you are going to pitch an episode on how to write a website just as a silly example. Now, if I did no research, and I wrote my pitch about how to write a website, only to find out later that they had just released a few episodes on how to do exactly that. Well, then I look silly, because it’s very clear from the get go that I didn’t do any research on the host. You can scan all of the episodes that they’ve released recently to see what they’re posting about. You can just scan their social media are they posting? Are they saying anything that sticks out to you? Can you maybe comment on their post and build a little bit of a relationship that way? But it all relates back to doing the research before you commit to doing the writing so that way you’re making a strategic effort here. Yeah, absolutely. I’d love to know a little bit more about how you suggest people doing that introduction to the type of topic that they’d like to speak about and then how to get more into Do it when it comes to diving deep in it, because that’s really a large part of the copy that they’re writing when it comes to the pitch. So do you have any recommendations for how people approach that? Angie Trueblood 15:08 Yeah. And I liked that you said that because so often people don’t give enough time and effort to what they are putting forth as the actual pitch, I mean, you are pitching a topic. And so that’s the part that needs to be super fleshed out and super specific to their audience. So we will tend to do I say paragraphs, but again, brevity, our pitches are long, I know that but they are as short as we can get them without leaving information out that the host needs to make a decision. That sort of when people are How long should a pitch be, I don’t know, as short as it can be, but include everything they need. And so we’ll do like an introduction paragraph like two sentences, typically, before we go into like a deep dive on the topic. And it’s literally saying sometimes, I noticed that your audience is online service providers in their first year of business or something like that. We almost restate who their listener is. And depending on who we’re pitching for, if it’s me or client, and I imagine that they struggle with XYZ, or I work with that same type of person. And I know they struggle with XYZ. So you really share a little bit about their audience. And something that leads to the problem that you’re suggesting, you might be able to solve through the interview. And then I thought a topic on and then we really draft out an episode title. So we don’t just say I thought I could come on and talk about how they can make a million dollars in affiliate revenue, like we frame it and put it in quotation. So it looks like an episode title, we thought a discussion on XYZ might be really useful. And that’s actually too vague of a word we’ll say specifically, like what we feel like the listener could get out of this interview. And then we say a conversation on this topic could include any of the following talking points. And then we list three to five bullet points of things that we could talk about during that interview. And no one ever goes right off of what we pitch them. So a lot of people get really nervous that you’re just pitching one topic. But a lot of those bullet points, they could be an interview all on their own. But it allows the host to have a depth of understanding of what that conversation could be. It’s not just oh, we could talk about affiliate marketing. No, we could actually talk about how to get revenue from affiliate marketing when you have a small list all kinds of different things. So you really want to bring that topic to life, and give it as much depth as possible. Erin Ollila 17:47 I love that. And there’s anything that I can add to this is as a podcast guest and more specifically, now, as a podcast host who gets pitched, I really want everyone listening to do what Angie would say is give it your best be plus effort here. Because the type of pitches that I normally get are way, way weaker than anything Andrew just said. Like, I think if people were to just be specific with what they want to talk about, like one very clear and specific episode, it would drive them to the top of that slush pile of pitches instantly, because most pitches that I get will say things like, they might have done some research on the show. They’ll say like I loved listening to your talk copy to me podcast this episode with so and so it’s really helpful. And I can see that you really want to give clear takeaways to your guest. I’m a this type of profession from this type of industry. And I feel like I have a lot of valuable insight for your audience. If you’d like to learn more about me go here. Or if you want to talk more about how I can be of benefit to your audience, let’s connect. And I do not have the time or interest in connecting with people to learn more about them. So what Angie is saying is create an idea, explain how you would talk about that idea. And if that is the biggest thing you do in your pitch, it is by far, a ton better than most people are doing at this point in time. And I think it will really just make your pitch stand out. I don’t know if that’s motivation or if that I don’t mean to pick on people. But it’s so rare to see a good pitch in the sea of really bad pitches. By putting in this effort doing a little bit of research. First, being clear on what you want to talk about and how you present how that topic helps their audience will significantly increase your chances of getting on a show. And as you say Angie Trueblood 19:48 that, I think for you listener friend. That should take the pressure off of you because a lot of times people are nervous to pitch or they’re anxious about Hitting a no, because they take that as a no, you’re not expert enough to be on my show. Or now, I don’t want you in front of my audience, when really, it’s more. No, that topic isn’t aligned with the content that I either have planned or want to plan for my audience hearing to podcast hosts say, it’s all about the topic. That’s why we’ve decreased the size of the bio, because no one really cares, we’ll put a couple of credibility markers in the pitch, so that they know this person didn’t just start doing this yesterday, and now they’re calling themselves an expert. But it’s far more about having the topic that is aligned than anything else. Erin Ollila 20:43 100%. And I would like to jump from this in a second. But if we’re just going to stay with the news for one teeny tiny second, let me reassure you that it is totally okay to get rejections as well. Before becoming a podcast host, I think I had a really great foundation for understanding that rejections were okay from being a literary journal founder. And I was just talking with my guest editor a night or two ago about this issue that we put out right now. We had well over I think it was 1000 submissions, I think in one month. And it takes a few months to create an issue. And we only published 28, which is a rather large issue for this time. So I imagine and I’m totally guessing, let’s say imagine there’s 2500 submissions to us, we only published 28. That does not mean that those extra submissions were horrible. I mean, some just weren’t for us. And some were really good that we got rid of. So I think that helped me understand that there are so many reasons why things don’t get accepted. And it does not mean, the merit of the submission is not good. Now, I can take this to the podcast world, I just got a submission, a really, really good guest application for someone who wanted to come and talk about brand messaging on my podcast. But as you know, because this is kind of just following this up a few episodes later, we just finished a whole series on brand messaging, there’s nothing more that I really want to add to it at this moment. Sure, in the future, we’ll probably talk about it again. But I had to turn away a perfectly lovely pitch from someone who I think would do a really good job to talk about that, just because it didn’t fit the needs that I have and the plans that I have for the immediate future of the podcast. So know that if you have someone that responds to you, and they’re like, Oh, thank you so much, great pitch, it’s just not right for me. They’re not trying to make you feel better, it’s probably just not right for them. And that’s okay, pitching is still a numbers game, you could have the best copy, and it is still the numbers game and you have no control. But what happens to your pitch after it leaves your inbox? Or I guess your sent box in your email? When or when you Angie Trueblood 22:51 hit submit on the form. Yeah, exactly where you’re pitching. Yeah. So Erin Ollila 22:55 actually, I’m glad you said that. Can we talk about forms for a second, because I think when people think about pitching podcasts, they mostly think about I’m going to create this letter myself that explains who I am and how I can potentially benefit their audience, which is what we’ve talked about. But it’s not always an email that you send to pitch host. I particularly hate when I get emails because for me, we’ve talked about how I have ADHD on the podcast, I need specific systems. So the systems I have set up is using a form. So that way, I can follow my own system to know here are the people who have applied I have to get back to them in this timeline, does it fit the goals that I have for the next few months? While I don’t love forums in general, there are purposes to them that people might really like. And in this instance, I think it goes just as far to have really good answers for a forum, which may not be set up in the way that you want to pitch. Do you have any suggestions for how people can focus on developing strong copy when they’re answering a form? 23:57 Well, it does come back to having the template to begin with, because you’ve already done the legwork on the basics of what that host is likely going to need. Logistically, I am a big fan. And we teach it inside of the co op of having a space a Google Doc that has all of your links, your bio your contact information. So you can just copy and paste a lot of forms will always have that at the beginning, make your life easier. So you’re not typing all of this. And then typically, the host is going to want to know what you want to talk about. And so you will have gotten that covered with a standard pitch template. So most of the time, you can copy and paste that. But you need to make sure that your answers logically answer the question. So it’s funny because I hate forums as a podcast. Guest like as someone who pitches people, I hate forums because it slows us down. But as a host I have a form and it is specifically to keep people out of email. And so I will ask a question on my form. And the answer sometimes doesn’t actually answer the question that I asked. That’s again, one of the ways that you can kind of rise to the top of Erin’s slush pile, is if I asked you a question, make sure whatever you put in the box beneath it is a logical response to that question, not just another piece of information that you want to share with a host. Sometimes they will ask stories, the question of Aaron like a fun fact, that’s a common one we see sometimes. So if you have a fun fact write it down on that Google Doc, so you can copy and paste it. Another question we see a lot is, why would you be the perfect person to talk about this topic? Well, if you write it out once, copy it back over to that Google Doc and have it, the whole approach that we take to pitching is we make it very personal. And also, I don’t ever really want to start from scratch if I don’t have to. That’s the other big tip. And it took me getting burned to know this is if you’re filling out a form, make sure you copy the question and your answer to the question on a Google Doc, because the host doesn’t always send you a copy of your responses. So you might get a yes. And they get prepped for the interview and think, oh, goodness, what are we actually talking about if the host hasn’t sent you anything? So copying the answers over for that specific show is really important. Erin Ollila 26:28 Yeah, I’ll echo that. Because I’ve made that mistake before to where I’ve completely did a great job filling out this pitch for someone on their forum. And then it comes time to talk and I’m like, I don’t know what we’re gonna talk about. I really wish I kept that. So it’s a tough lesson to learn. But I kind of feel like maybe it’s also you know, that entryway into being a podcast guests like everyone has to do at once to really learn their lesson before they start making it part of their practice. I think it’s so smart that if you answer at once, like keep it in that document that you send, and honestly, folks, I think it all comes back to what we said a second ago, if you’re going to do the minimum viable approach to becoming a podcast guest. It’s legitimately following the rules, right? Rules, in this case, being answering the question that’s asked of you like a lot of the times for the fun fact, or even I don’t think I have the thing about like, what makes you the right person, but in whatever questions I have, I’ll have people copy their bio in there. And I’m like, What do you think about your bio is a fun fact. And maybe it’s just like corny, old Aaron, but like, there’s anything can be a fun fact people, right? Like, here’s my coffee order, it doesn’t have to be pro wrestling, loving it as a child, right? It could be that you wear glasses, even though they don’t have a prescription lens on them, like whatever it is, it makes no difference. It’s going to be funny to someone. In that instance, when I see that it makes me want to do an automatic No, because it’s frustrating that I think as a host, if you can’t answer one question for me, what is it going to be like to interview you. And I see this, again, pulling in the literary journal, I see this all the time, people submit, and our biggest rule is to do what we’re trying to call concealed submissions in the literary world is usually called non blind submissions. And what that means is don’t put your identifying information within the document. So that way, we can read it and have no clue who you are, and not be swayed by knowing you or like a big name submitting. And people do it all the time. And they do it in shady ways, in the middle of page five of a 10 page document that’s purposeful looks like I am not stupid in the grand scheme, look at what the host is asking for. You might also want to look at what are the required fields on forms, because I have seen some very long forms before that not all fields are required. And then, you know, make the decision yourself like is it valuable for me to complete this entire thing is there? Obviously the required fields are ones that are important to the host? So how can you make those the best answers possible. So that way, the host is excited about potentially working with you. I think forums, even though it feels impersonal, there is such great opportunity to make it personal. So that way, you have a better chance of being a guest on that show for sure. Angie Trueblood 29:21 Again, it’s just harder, pulling yourself out and showcasing who you are an email is one thing, doing it on a form is a little bit of a different beast. I would also say and this is something we didn’t do for a long while I have no idea why you can include a link to a one sheet and the text fields. So if there’s any part of the questions that allow you a longer text area, you can link to something that’s an audio snippet that is your one sheet, anything that highlights even more who you are and shows that you’ve got some experience and this that’s just a fun fact. For filling out forms Erin Ollila 30:01 such a valuable thing, because I think sometimes I say follow the rules, right? But if the rule is to answer one specific question, you might not think to yourself, well, how can I add these things, and hosts love to hear what a guest sounds like. So if there are clips, or an audio gram of former shows that you’ve done, it’s a great way to move up the ranks as well. And that can easily be added to a place that’s like a bio, what’s your bio, you post it and say, if you’d like to learn more about me, you can read a larger bio and hear clips of me speaking at this link. There’s natural ways that it’s not like stuffing things in there. I think that’s super helpful. One thing we didn’t talk about when we were talking about emails, which I think also makes sense with forms, although the beauty here of forms is that it’s naturally helping you with the way that the form is set up. But it’s making sure the text in the email is visually readable for the person who’s going to read it. paragraphs are a thing of the past, folks, you read paragraphs, when you read books, when it comes to anything in the online world, you’re going to really want to stay away from paragraphs, a lot of the times it’s natural for people to write long paragraphs in an email, especially one where you have to present a lot of information. But it’s hard to read that when there is no immediate connection between the host and a potential guest. Sure, if you’re going to be like referred by a friend, there’s that level of connection that makes the host pay a little bit closer attention. But in a cold pitch, you want to make your email as clear as possible for the host to make their decisions. So do you have any suggestions on how people can go about doing that? Yeah, so Angie Trueblood 31:43 a lot of paragraph breaks. So paragraphs, for sure, no more than three sentences. But you don’t have to flash back to high school English, where every paragraph has to have three to five sentences we’ve had before where it’ll just be like a one liner. It’s almost like the bio one liner. And we separate that with a paragraph break before and another one after, we will also use bold print. So if we’re introducing that introduction paragraph, before we go into the bullet points of what the conversation might be, we’ll bold faced the episode title that we’re proposing. So it doesn’t sound like it breaks it up. But it actually does is if you add links, it does call out. So if we link to the potential guests name, then that’s something that just naturally stands out. Sometimes we will I italicize the text of the bullets so that there’s just again, a little separation that it sort of sparks. And then in the bottom. Interestingly, we used to link to previous interviews more in line in a paragraph. And now what we do is we actually line up the links that we want to share horizontally on one line. This is so nerdy, and I love it, we thought about doing it vertically to where we would link to a website, a one sheet Instagram, but it just took up more space. And visually, it didn’t seem very modern or appealing. And so now we do it on one line. And it’ll be website, it’s hyperlinked a little line, Instagram, that’s hyperlinks, so it’s very clean for the host to be able to grab what they need without having to weed through stuff that they’re not interested in. Yeah, and Erin Ollila 33:25 email Fun fact, which I actually just double checked, because I wasn’t sure I had the number correct is you want to make sure that you’re not putting too many links within the actual email itself. Or there’s a potential for it to go to the spam folder, I need to adjust my footer because my footer itself and my email signature has, I think four links in it. And it’s recommended to have five or fewer links within an email, especially the case if there’s not already like email communication between you and another person. Because email communication tells these email filters that you know each other, it’s safe to send a bunch of links. But if you’re emailing someone that you’re emailing for the first time, whereas with outside of your organization, like because we use Google workspace as an example, too many links might show that you’re a spam email. So it’s thinking how can I adjust my email? Like I mentioned, I have that signature that already has four links? Well, in the instance, if I’m pitching, I should be removing the links from my signature, because some of them I’m already using within the pitch itself, like a website, for example. Consider what’s the most important links to share with them to give them the best information that they need. And then let the rest of those links not be in there for you don’t need them in those instances. Angie Trueblood 34:42 I never knew that. I never thought about it. Yeah, because our email signatures have at least like probably four links in them. And then we’re linking to all these other places for the client because we put our own email signature in our outgoing pitches. Erin Ollila 34:58 I was just paying attention to it. Yeah. yesterday because I had sent out last night yesterday, the beginning of this week, I don’t even know what time is anymore. I had sent out an email that was pretty much like a review of here’s the series we did on this topic on the podcast. So each of those episodes, there’s four links, I’m linking out to them directly. My email signature already had four links, and I forgot what I did put a call to action at the end of it, which was another link. And I was like, Aaron, that has a lot of links, right. So if I’m not communicating with the people on my list, and off, it’s going to seem like I’m spamming them, by sending them an email with all that links, when rightfully, you definitely need for links in those emails. And it’s the four links for the episodes, consider that when you’re sending your pitches, if you’ve done the research, you’ve written, good strategic copy, because it’s all research base, and it’s customized for the host that you’re sending it to. Now, are you presenting the information correctly, so that way, again, you’re not getting put in someone’s spam folder, and they see it right there in their inbox. Angie Trueblood 35:57 All right, now we’re gonna go back to the drawing board. Erin Ollila 36:01 Let’s talk about what happens after you’re a guest, like you’ve made it through that slash bio, you’ve done the interview, it’s gone live, what about how to promote the episodes as a guest, because there’s a lot of copy that goes into that Angie Trueblood 36:17 my thought on this has changed over the years. And I think it’s as I seen, the expansion of social media, and the inability to ever know the algorithm at that particular moment in time. And so I’m a really big proponent of sharing the interviews after they go live in the way that your audience is most likely to consume them. So for me, we have an Instagram presence at the pod wise group. And we in the past have been very diligent about sharing episodes every Thursday. In stories, we would share client wins, Co Op wins and my own interviews, it took a lot of work on our end to have a system on the back end to be able to share these. And I thought over the past couple of months, well, where do people really interact with me the most, and it’s on my podcast, that is actually where I do most of my sharing for my guest episodes. It’s almost like a free promo spot that I give the host Whose show I was a guest on, it’s in the beginning of my episodes, I share, hey, I was a guest on the show, here’s what we talked about, here’s why you should listen. But that’s copy. And I write that ad spot out before I ever even think of saying it. So there’s that piece of it. You can also and I know you’ve talked about it inside of the Co Op, you can use that content that you have created in a guest interview as blog posts on your own website. So tons of coffee, tons of SEO that can get poured into that social media copy, if that’s your jam, for sure posts, and you have the context. In the actual one thing I will say to people who are posting these on social and I think this is where part of my hang up was is I just don’t think behaviorally speaking, someone is going to be randomly scrolling Instagram and see that you had this podcast episode released. And they’re going to hop on over and listen to it. I see a lot of people just dropping cover art with like a small audio gram. And I do that I mean, I put audio grams. But I feel like a copy that you need to have on social needs to open and close the loop on social because the chance that that person is going to change platform and move from a written platform to an audio platform, my opinion is very low, either read or be super compelling, super hooky or open and close the loop there and use it just as an additional piece of content. And then we also share in our email newsletter because that’s the other place that I really more personally connect with my people. Erin Ollila 38:58 That is such valuable information. And I completely agree. The beauty of sharing on the podcast is it’s so much easier to click over to another podcast immediately the second after yours is done, especially if you’ve sold why the topic is valuable to the people who are listening. And again, when social You’re right. I do as well. I do share all of the guest episodes that I am as a host on my Instagram feed. But what I always laugh about what I’m doing is like Lincoln bio, and I’m like I never am clicking through anyone’s in their bio. And then what happens though is it takes you to a static page where you then have to search for that particular episode and it may or may not even be included. There are ways around that. I mean, Instagram won’t like it but you can copy the link and add it directly in the post and just say hey, copy and paste this and here’s the direction that you can go to listen to it. But one easy way to adjust this is to make sure that when you share an episode, you share it through the actual podcast player to Instagram So what I always do is when I do a new episode of this podcast, the day after it goes live, I will go to my Spotify player, open up the episode that’s new. And I will click Share to Instagram stories and it shares it with an actual link that you can listen to right there through Spotify. Obviously, if you are copying and pasting a link, you can add them through Instagrams link feature. But I don’t know about you guys, it’s really hard to copy long lengths and then start pasting them and try to come up with a name for the link. So much easier to just navigate from a podcast player to Instagram. But yeah, your points really valid. Think about where is your audience going to consume this content? And how do they like to consume content, don’t just post the guests opportunities that you have, just because you think you have to do it strategically, so that people actually listen to these episodes. And that’s going to help you help the host. And really help your audience because you are providing them value with the content you’re sharing. Angie Trueblood 41:06 Yeah. And I think for Instagram, the Spotify share, and then linking to Apple. That’s one way to lower the activation energy that is required of the user. And I think you really do up your chances. Because if I’m on my phone, and I click and it goes right to my app, yeah, I’ll totally do that. But I’m not going to go five layers deep in your bio, to figure out this one episode. Yeah, I never linked to guest episodes in my bio. Sorry, Aaron. Erin Ollila 41:36 Totally. Okay. I know it’s coming. Now. I know. It’s, Angie Trueblood 41:39 no, it’s not. It’ll come in my stories. Erin Ollila 41:42 All right, I’m looking out for it. So Angie, you have been so helpful today, I think everyone who is listening really needs to go check out the pod where his group, whether they are going to work with you one on one or join the both of us in the coop, I will put all the links to how to do that, as well as the links to the challenge that you have coming up, because I’ve been through it. And I it’s awesome. And it will really help you get out there and start pitching yourself. Obviously, this is time sensitive. So when you’re listening to this, maybe you’ll have missed out on the challenge. But just know, it is a great place on that Co Op. And I highly recommend that you go there and learn from Angie and learn from the community because it’s a really generous community to be in. But before I let my guests leave, I have a few questions to ask them. The first one is, drumroll if you could give any small homework assignment to our audience, when it comes to a podcast pitching in general, or maybe copy in relation to podcast pitching, what assignment would you give them, Angie Trueblood 42:45 I would love for your listeners just to try to take I’m sure most of them have a long bio their coal about page, come up with one sentence, come up with your bio one liner that you could use in a pitch. Because that really can set the strategy and the tone once you know like what’s the most important stuff about me to share? You’ve done a lot of the heavy lifting for strategy. I love that. Erin Ollila 43:09 And if you could connect with anyone in the online business world, who would you connect with? Angie Trueblood 43:14 And why can I share what we said before? Now I’m sure we were laughing about this. And we were saying someone who’s going to pay $50,000 to us. So we would like a client? No. Erin Ollila 43:28 Well, I mean, come on in the online business world. What does everyone preach, you can make seven figures in 12. And a week you just close your eyes spin around. And we’ve joked about this on the show before. So really, guys, here’s the pitch. Angie and I are really excited about working with you if you want to pay us like however many figures $50,000 is for like 10 minutes of help, we’ll happily take your money and give you 10 minutes of health value. Joe, I Angie Trueblood 43:53 want to connect with what you do show care, I think it would actually be Pat Flynn, which a lot of people that know me, I have a lot of respect for him. And I just think he’s such a super sharp guy who also leads with his heart and by prioritizing his family. So I would just love to spend like an hour of him with his eyes on my business. I think that would be amazing. I would probably have to pay him $50,000 To do that at this point. Erin Ollila 44:22 But if someone’s already paying you 50,000 You can just divert that money into auto we pat and it works out perfectly. Yes. All right. Final question. And this is always the one that I do absolutely last minute and have no clue what I’m gonna get myself into here. If you had to close down the business, you’re retiring from the podcast community, but you have to take another type of job or start another type of company, whatever. What type of work would you do if you could no longer do what you’re doing? Angie Trueblood 44:53 I would run my local podcast so I launched a local podcast earlier this year. It’s already on hiatus. It’s, there’s a lot going on in life and business. But I would run that local podcast, it’s for women, and I would network it. So I would have multiple shows throughout the US based in different cities run by women talking to women. Erin Ollila 45:18 I love that. That’s so good for you. I think I’d open an ice cream shop. I love that your big business anyway right now is really amplifying the voice of women. And then your end result here is to continue to do that and minds is like, I would just eat a lot of ice cream at my ice cream shop and meet new people. But we all have dreams. We all have dreams. I would Angie Trueblood 45:39 like a bookstore. I could get lost in a bookstore. I think that would be super fun. Erin Ollila 45:43 You could get the bookstore and run your podcast out of it. Angie Trueblood 45:47 icon it and serve ice cream Erin Ollila 45:48 I was gonna say and then just come down and open my ice cream shop within the bookstore. I think this is a new idea for us. Yeah. All right, friends. Thank you so much for tuning in. Thank you, Angie for being here. And as always, if you have any questions, comments, thoughts about this episode, you can reach out to Angie and I on social and we’re excited to hear from you. Angie Trueblood 46:10 Thank you Erin. Erin Ollila 46:14 Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Top copy to me. If you enjoyed spending your time with me today. I would be so honored if you could subscribe to the show and leave a review. Want to continue the conversation. Head on over to Instagram and follow me at Erin Ollila. Until next time friends

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