Lazy Launches and Strategic Sales Launches with Kristin Macintyre

NOTE: This podcast was transcribed by an AI tool. Please forgive any typos or errors. Erin Ollila  00:00 All right, so today I have Kristen McIntyre. Here with me she is a launch copywriter who helps online course creators have feel good sold out launches with copy that connects and converts. What you might not know about Kristen, though, is that throughout the pandemic, she actually read all seven Harry Potter books out loud to her partner. So every night she’d read before bed, and pretty quickly, it turned out that she was the one reading out loud and her partner had fall asleep, like two minutes into reading the Harry Potter books out loud. So basically, I guess when we can say is that Kristen read out loud to herself, all seven of the Harry Potter books during the pandemic. I love that Kristen, I am going to admit something to you that I probably don’t tell most people out of shame. But I have read zero Harry Potter books. And I feel as if everyone that I know is like a super Potter fan. And they’ll say like things like I don’t even know if I’m saying this right. But like, Are you Team Griffin door or slipper in? And I’m like, I don’t know, I don’t want to pick sides. Because I’m like, I don’t know what these things mean. So yes, I guess that maybe that’s a question. Are you Griffin door? Are you with glycerin? Are there any more options for you? 01:20 There are there are other options, but I will let you discover those on your own. Okay. But I mean, it’s a lot to get through. Have you tried the audiobooks? They’re awesome, yet? No, Erin Ollila  01:30 I haven’t. I feel like when I was a little younger, like in my 20s I was like the rebel who didn’t participate in anything that was super pop culture, like not that I necessarily tried. I just felt like, in general, I’d come to things late. Like a Sex in the City, for example, I watched it on TV for the first time in the second to last episode. And then I became like such a fan of the show that I bought, like, the entire all of the seasons and their little fancy DVD collection that I swear cost me like $250. So in general, I just think I just didn’t hop on to the trend. And now I feel like it going on for so long and not reading it. I’m like, I don’t know. Should I always not listen to Harry Potter be the only person in our civilization at some point that has not read or listened to it? Or should I just jump in now because it’s been going on for well over a decade? Probably at least. 02:25 Yeah, I would jump in. There’s a lot of magic to kind of uncover there. So give it a go. The audiobooks are awesome, but to clarify, I’m definitely a gardener. Oh, yeah. Okay, I’m just gonna throw that out there. Erin Ollila  02:35 Good to know. But today, I have a child who’s probably coming like right up to the age that would be a good to read it with. So maybe that’s when we’ll jump into the Harry Potter when I introduce it to her. 02:46 You’re gonna read out loud to your Erin Ollila  02:50 she’s probably gonna fall asleep on me too. Same thing, we’re gonna, it’s gonna come full circle, like I’m teasing you about your experience of your read out loud, Harry Potter. And you know, a year from now I’m gonna be like, oh, gosh, you remember that conversation with Kristen? This is your life now. 03:06 That’s exactly right. I can’t wait for it. Erin Ollila  03:08 Yes, I’m not exactly sure how to transition from Harry Potter to sales copy. But let’s just jump right in. One thing we were talking about before we started recording that I think would be really helpful to my audience is the idea of what a lazy launch is. I think it’s something people do all the time. They don’t know that there’s like a general name for it. And I think they do it and feel a lot of shame. But what some of my clients, whether they’re the done for you clients are the DIY clients, and myself, I’ll use myself in here is they offer products or a workshop or something like that to the world. And they kind of throw it together. They don’t know, they feel like they’re not doing it. Right. It might be last minute. And I just wonder, is there a way to look at lazy launch in, like in a strategic manner. So that way people can realize, like, just getting it out there is the goal. And putting your product to the world is really what should be happening. But you don’t have to do everything right. 04:10 Oh, my gods. Yes. Right. Yeah, I feel the same way I hear all the time. 04:16 Like, you know, when we when we think about launching something new, there’s a lot to do, right? Or to do lists can get really long really quickly. And if we’re poking around the internet or on Instagram, there’s a lot of people kind of barking about you should do this way. You have to have this kind of stuff. And there’s tons of bells and whistles out there to launch something. But that can be really overwhelming. Like even me as a launch copywriter. I get overwhelmed by thinking about all the things I can do or quote unquote should be doing to launch a new product or a service. But it’s important. I think it’s really important to kind of step back from all the trends Send all that information out there and all those strategies you can kind of try on and really say if I’m going to launch something the quote unquote lazy way, which is to make it to put it out there in the world, and to tell people that it’s there, that is a big win, that is a big win. And in fact, you’ll probably get your first couple of clients or your first couple of buyers that way in which you can gather some info, you can chat with them, you can maybe get some testimonials. And you can always add bells and whistles as we go or build maybe more robust plan, kind of down the line. So yes, I’m all for lazy logic, Erin Ollila  05:38 you know, that is such a valid point. The reason it had come up in our conversation before we started recording was, I had recently done a workshop for a group and shared a bunch of resources that I had created with them. And I realized, okay, this would be great to share with my audience, like, I don’t know why I’m just sharing it with this one group, let me just put it out there. And we’ll do it as like a live workshop together. So I did. But you know, I had by the time we publish this episode will have already heard from ash Chow. And she explains the power framework with us and how to pre launch. So I talked to ash, I then did not follow any of her suggestions and just threw this offer out in the world. And now I’m here talking to you about how to actually be strategic with sales pages and emails. So I, I find myself in this exact situation of a lazy launch at this moment. And I think what you had said that really stood out to me is, you know, sometimes, the lazy launch is smart for the fact that you can learn about what you’re creating and what you’re selling, gather those testimonials and things. So even though I would say that I am more seasoned in the topic that I’m offering, and I feel prepared to do so from a sales perspective, I wasn’t prepared, right? So having this lazy launch, working through it in a live aspect, I’m then able to learn, are there any missing aspects to this, right? Like, is there something that I need to add on to this in the future, when it is either like, you know, a, you know, product that I’m offering that it’s like a self guided course, or if I do it again, live, right, like, I’ll learn that now from just throwing it out in the world and getting that feedback from the people who are there. And then when I am ready to be a little bit more strategic in my situation, or whether it’s something that I offer annually, and I just, you know, offer once a year, or just have it as a product on my site, I’ll have the testimonials from the people who attended, I’ll have like all of these things that make creating that sales page, so much easier. So I love that we’re starting with this, because I think part of my belief as a business owner is that you you should just put your stuff out there. And you should just take the risks and the chance and that, you know, I had said this earlier to you. But like there’s no like blink three times, and you’ll make $8 million in this industry, right? It’s like you have to force yourself to take action. And from that action, you will learn and you will grow and you will then build your audience. Right. So everything is easier later. Yeah, that’s great. Is there anything more about lazy launches? From like a perspective of what you need? Like maybe what’s the bare minimum someone would need if they’re going to throw together a launch at the last minute? 08:23 Sure. Yeah, um, I think it depends on maybe what the product is. But for me, in my my business, I had a lot first launch of a digital product back in November. And the only two assets that I needed to put that thing out there in the world and quote unquote launch it even though it wasn’t a big bells and whistles launch was a sales page. And guess what, even as a launch copywriter my sales page was done and published in a Google Doc. Erin Ollila  08:54 I remember that and I just to let everyone know, I actually purchased Kristen’s product. And I remember when I first saw that you had it in a Google Doc, I like giggles because in the marketing industry, I put a lot of pressure on myself, I don’t think I realized I had such perfectionist tendencies until I ended entered this world. Because part of the problem is when you are an expert in something like we are in copywriting. When we create for ourselves, it’s like this burden because you just want to get it right, you know, so when I when I actually really admired that you had in your you say it’s just a Google Doc, but like you you actually like designed it a little we you had like the perfect gifts in the or gifs however you say the GI F word. No one knows no one knows gifts or gifts. You had them in the perfect spot. They were like completely related to your copy. And from the perspective of a buyer like I moved through the copy in a way like from the customer experience that like I didn’t feel pressured. I felt like okay, I’m being like heard in a sense, right? Like, isn’t that what we want our copy to do for our own hands like, we want them to feel like, oh, wow, they hear me like they know what I’m going through. And then we want to offer a transformation. And luckily, you know, we have to be careful of how we look at that word transformation. But in the case of purchasing your product, the transformation for me as the end user was being able to move through this process in an easier manner, like not struggle. So in case anyone’s listening and they don’t know about your product, I’ll just quickly go over it. It was a product for copywriters who are looking to like offer VIP experiences to their clients, because Kristen works only VIP type of process. So that’s right. Am I making this up for you? Am I like designing a business for you? You only do VIP work, right? You are correct. I was like, here I am talking and I’m like, Oh, holy bananas. Maybe she doesn’t. But yes, so like, she’ll work with her clients in these VIP intense intensives. And then she just basically showed us how we could go about doing it ourselves. And the loveliest part is copywriting is such a wide feel like I’m having Kristin, I had ash and Jess on the show to talk about sales copy, because it’s just not something that I’m super familiar or comfortable doing. Because it’s not my exact niche, right. So I’m calling in the experts to do it for me. So when I purchased her VIP day product, I was really excited to see how it works so well for all different type of copywriters, because we have different types of needs. So to just quickly get back to your sales page in a Google Doc, I think it worked well, because the copy spoke to me in a very ethical way. And you just jumped in and didn’t stress yourself about designing the perfect sales page using funnel software to try to get people in, right, like you just offered what you had. And I think that most of my clients really want to do that they have something that is in their heart, or they have something that they’ve worked really hard to create, and they just want to offer it to people. And that is the perfect example of a lazy launch. 12:02 Yeah, yeah, it was the sales page and our Google Doc and you know, just to kind of like hammer home that point, it cost me $0 To put that sales page out into the world. And I had just a handful of emails, I mean, one social post because I’m a ghost on social media, social posts, a handful of emails and a sales page and a Google Doc and that is how I launched my my digital product in November. And by all measures it was a fabulous launch and I learned so much about my audience and I’m really launching in just a couple of weeks here and Erin Ollila  12:38 you hear that copywriters if you’re a copywriter and you’re listening to this get on this copywriters you have my full testimonial and support behind this product. It was wonderful. All right, keep going. 12:49 I’m rewinding this time. And this time I’ve had you know, a brat I could take a breath I said okay, what worked well great this time I have a sales page right I hired a designer to design a sales pitch for me so as you can see, you can add the bells and whistles later but if I went into that first launch thinking I have to pay a sales page designer I have to you know do all of these fancy things so that I have this high production value I probably would have never launched a thing I’m going to be totally honest yeah so keep the bar low get it out there gather data learn from it and then launch again and you know add layers to the launch as you go Erin Ollila  13:29 Yeah, so I always tell people copy before design right and like I would say most of the most of the website designers I work with which is my little niche of this copywriting world they also agree copy before design. But what happens is even as business owners if they’re taking the DIY route, they were able to design first not copy but your example is the perfect example of why messaging is far more important than design right? If you didn’t like throw the information in a Google doc which was convincing because of the message that it shared right like it hit the pain points even though I struggle with the the word pain points right like it hit the needs of your audience, explain to them that transformation and it was easy then to choose to make up for me as the audience member to make the sale to make the purchase. It would be helpful if I could learn how to talk as a podcast host not like stumble upon my words but I think people are used to that now so we’re just gonna go with it. So it was easy for me to purchase the product because I could work through that message. I didn’t care about the design right so But now Now that you’ve learned and you have all of the data from your first launch, you know that adding to the design will help right like we’re we copywriters are not anti design, if anything, I completely believe they work together perfectly right? Like if you don’t have a beautiful design, it could stunt your sales, but the message will trump any design and anything else. The other thing I just wanted to touch base on quit believe that I heard that you said was your you can learn from it. And one thing I know we’re going to talk now more about like strategic launches. But one thing that you did really well was you followed up with your your people who purchased to ask them questions about how they use the product and what they maybe what they struggled with or what they thought went really well. So that’s kind of like doing voice of customer research. If you think about it, even though like when we think of Voc we think of it pre writing. But in the sense like in products, or like workshops and things like this, getting that information post offer is also just as helpful, because you can do that lazy launch. And then you gather that information. And you can update your message for the more strategic launch later, based on what your actual audience is saying about the purchasing process about being the client and what they felt after they used it. Do you think that that helps you a lot with updating your message for a more strategic launch? 16:02 Oh, my gosh, yes, yes. And this is, I think, a good point, Aaron, and kind of highlights the importance of a lazy launch almost right. Like we call it lazy, which almost makes it sound like we’re not doing our job. But I think that doing a lazy launch is quite strategic, because you get to gather a lot of info and learn about what your folks need about what they want about what resonates with them before you invest in a bigger launch, or maybe a funnel or something of that kind of you know, something, something in that bucket? So yes, to answer your question, yes, the first launch that I did, that was a lazy launch give me so much insight into what the product will look like going forward. It helped with messaging, it helped me actually build out the product. I have two new bonuses in this, you know, round, which everybody gets access to. So check your inbox soon. I will. And yeah, it was just a fabulous way to chat with people. And we all know that business is really built on relationships and really listening to and hearing your audience. So all of these points are just reasons why. If you’re listening and you’re hesitating to launch that thing, do it scrappy, do it lazy and then take it from there. You don’t have to go six all six figure launch in that first go around. Erin Ollila  17:24 Yeah, and let’s you know, it’s I have a mixed audience of people who are listening that are di wires and they’re also the people who want to hire copywriters. So a point that I’d like to make here too, is like, you know, we’ve spoke a lot of what it’s like to DIY things. But if you want to do a lazy launch, and you also want the copywriter to jump in and do that marketing aspect for you, you can like lazy launches doesn’t mean you don’t hire a copywriter. Right, we have the aspect of copywriting our own lazy launches. But I think that if you know what you want to offer, you just want to get it out there. You can work with someone who can get that message out for you and then refine it that second round, right? So when you’re hearing this don’t feel like it’s only a DIY thing, like just make that clear when you’re working with a copywriter like this is you know, our first time I want to get this out here, here are the messages that I think are important. How can we go about presenting this like in a like an ethical way that feels good? And then let’s take the data that we have like or how can we be strategic to gather this data, maybe by like an application, maybe by like just setting up those like, test? Like questions as people go through the product to get that voice of customer, right. So it really is information, lazy launches work for any type of business owner, whether it’s products, it’s like a productized service or anything like that. I think that getting it out there is super duper helpful. All right, so let’s transition a little bit to talk about more strategic launches are here listening and they want to like write their own sales pages and their own sales emails and their heads are swimming because it feels like so much goes into a strategic launch. And even the people who want to hire for I think their heads are swimming a little because they know they need to hire. They know they want to talk to someone who is an expert in this but I think they worry like what information do I have to provide them right? Like, how can this copywriter take all of this out of my head for those monsterous launch and sell it to my audience? So let’s just jump into the general part of of sales launches. I know for lazy launch, you mentioned you really just need sales, sales pages and emails. Is that the same for a more strategic launch? Is there more that you need? You can 19:44 build a funnel that is again has a lot of bells and whistles, the copy assets that you will always need to launch something whether it’s lazy or something a little bit more strategic with a pre launch strategy say which you learned from mash and you know, built out a little bit maybe with what we call a conversion event, which might be a masterclass or a webinar where you’re pitching your program, you always need a sales page, you always need emails to sell that thing to your audience. Again, if it’s a launch where you have a conversion event or something, you know, you have a funnel that’s a little bit more complex. You’ll need some more copy assets, like a registration page where folks can actually sign up to join your webinar or masterclass. And, of course, a couple of reminder emails to help folks remind folks to show up to that event live, which is where our conversions usually happen the most right in that live webinar or masterclass. And there’s also, you know, launches where we use ads to drive traffic. So ads are another copy asset that you can kind of add to the mix. If that fits your strategy with paid traffic. I love Erin Ollila  20:54 that you said all this, right? Because when I asked you this question, in my mind, I was expecting, you’d be like, yeah, sales and emails. Right. So bringing this back to what you just said, I, what I heard that I think was really helpful. And like a great takeaway for anyone is, you know, we’re saying lazy launch versus strategic launch. But when you look at the strategic launch, I mean, you could be someone coming to to a copywriter, and you’re like, Alright, I’m ready, like my products. Awesome. My service is awesome. I want to like invest in a smart marketing plan for this launch. And it still is such a spectrum of like, what you might need, which, you know, one thing in the copywriting world where I feel like, you know, my leads or clients, they get frustrated is they they wish that we had more specific answers. I literally did a whole episode on the like, the topic of it depends, like, because I just think that’s the only only true answer in marketing. I think maybe I don’t really want to be buried. But if I ever were buried, I would get a gravestone that said it depends because like it does everything depends, right, like so. I mean, you know, when when people are approaching sales copy, I really think that they should think about it that way as well. Like when it comes to considering like interviewing copywriters or looking at like the budgetary aspect of what it cost, it depends on what you’re launching. And it depends on the strategy. So go into the process of working with a copywriter with information of what you’re looking to do, right? Like the copywriter can either rein you in or open like your mind to like knowing that you need more, because we’re professionals and we do this right. So they can help you determine if you’re on the right track or if you need any adjustments, but like have the information about what you’re looking for, have the information about what you’re offering. And then let that the sales copywriter be the one to help you customize what they’re going to do for you. Like I know in your business, I was mildly stalking you before we got on our call, you have your VIP which we set up very clearly. So they know whatever asset it is they’re coming to you for. That’s what’s going to be accomplished. So in that case for you, the customization aspect might be they hire you for three weeks, right? Like if they have like a really big strategic launch, they get one thing accomplished in the beginning, something else after however it works, but I still think but like it’s great to go into this realizing that you don’t have to know what specific funnel you need, what specific marketing assets you need. You just need to know what it is you’re trying to do. And then you can let the copywriter determine what you need for marketing assets. 23:40 That is true, but I would hesitate to say that’s always true. Okay, so I’m a copywriter, a copywriter and like a funnel strategist or a launch strategist? Sometimes we wear the same hats and sometimes we don’t. So for my clients in particular, and I know not all copywriters are like me, but when my clients come to me, they already know the context in which the copy will appear. Because I certainly can’t make that up for them. Erin Ollila  24:11 Such a valid point. Yeah, so 24:12 it does depend Erin Ollila  24:13 You’re right. No, and I say the same thing for me myself with websites. Right, right. That’s the one thing that I find that the leads who need help with is the Services page. You know, like, I’ll have clients, they’ll come to me and they’ll be like, I don’t I don’t really know what to put on this page. And I’ll as as much as I can guide them for like a ton of marketing things because I love strategy. I can’t make business decisions for them. So like I can’t like determine how many like sessions will be in a coaching package as an example, or like what it cost for a wedding photography session, right? Like I can just guide them on how we offer this. So I’m actually really, really glad that you pointed that out. Because while I do want people to realize I can tap into the skills of a Launch strategists and a copywriter. It is important to say like, not everyone has those skills. And you know, in your case, if people aren’t trained in like the whole funnel aspect, maybe that’s just not what they do. But they do an excellent job in the specific types of copywriting. Maybe that’s an interview type of question. Like when you interview your leads, you want to know where they are, and how ready that they are. And when they interview, the sales copywriter, they want to know what it is that they can get from you or or what they need to do to prepare to work for you. Would that be right? 25:32 Yeah. And here’s another good way to look at it. You know, when we launch something, there’s always there’s always three pieces to the puzzle, right? Audience offer and copy. Erin Ollila  25:42 Oh, super smart. I love that you said that. 25:45 Yeah. You know, as a copywriter? I of course, you know, like, my job is to focus on what messages are we saying? In what order? Are we saying them? And how are we saying them so that they feel really authentic to the client, and they actually connect with the customer? So I’m like, I got the copy covered or section covered by the the audience, right? How are we driving traffic to this offer? Is the audience? Is this something the audience actually needs? And the offer itself? isn’t a good offer? Is it proven? Do we have testimonials? Those are things that I have no control over? So yes. So there’s, it might help to think about it in those three aspects. If you have your audience down, Pat, if you have an offer that fits that’s right for that audience, then you’re ready to work on messaging and copy with a copywriter to Erin Ollila  26:38 flash, I love that. I’m so glad you said this. And I wasn’t prepared to talk about this. But it like really goes full circle with our whole conversation. So far, right? There’s the lazy launch. And we are not going to address this next part. But there is that middle ground spectrum of the like, practicing launches, right? Like where maybe you are offering things regularly, or you’re just cycling through small products. And then there’s the strategic launch, which I said and as a spectrum of how strategic and how big that launch is going to be. But when you look at it from the perspective of the audience, the offer and the copy that kind of determines what type of strategic launch you do, right? So if they don’t have the audience yet, then maybe they lazy launch it with a bit more copywriting like strategy, right? Like, they’ll hire the copywriter and get the message out there. But they are still lazy launching or they’re, they’re also going to need to hire a launch strategist specifically, that can help them with the things like the ads, like whether it’s social media, or whatever, to be able to build that audience, which will then help amplify the message right? Or if they have, like you said, tested the offer. They have the audience already so like this product itself is ready, then they can do that more like monsterous launch where you’re stepping in and like glamour fIying every possible message that they have because all of that’s figured out already. In some ways. What I’m really hearing is like all of this works together, right like the the stager ready when it comes to the strategic launch might depend more on things you’ve done for lazy launches, or it might depend on maybe needing additional help, you know, you might need a Facebook ad strategist like but that needs to go into the decision making when it comes to how you hire someone for a more strategic launch. 28:31 Yeah, and I think one of the good another good thing to keep in mind is that a copywriter can definitely help you figure out what to say and how to say it. But of course, as a business owner, you really want to know your people. And you really want to have voice of customers so that your copywriter isn’t guessing. But they’re actually using their the messaging that comes from your experience working with these folks, and probably straight from their own mouths, right? Whether that’s through surveys or interviews that are transcribed. We always love to ask the right questions to get answers that really inform what we’re saying in our copy and how we say it too. Erin Ollila  29:13 Yeah, and that’s so helpful for the people that are out there trying to be more strategic with a dun dun for themselves launch right if they’re writing their own copy, go out there and ask questions of your audience. You know, put a survey out from your email, pop on some social media posts and polls or whatever it is to get that information because it will like it helps copywriters Sure. But it will help you to like you just have to be able to sift through the information that you get, and realize what messages keep coming up and what’s valuable to your audience. But I think that one thing that I think is rare, rarely spoken about in the sales perspective, is the audience awareness level. And that in some ways, I think can be controlled in some ways cannot like I think if you know the audience or awareness level, you’re more able to write toward that like to where they are the message that you share. But one thing I always tell my clients, you can’t control where people are, when you offer them, whatever you’re offering them. So if you have people on your list that you’re emailing, let’s say, and they’re just not ready for whatever’s going on in their personal life to purchase that shouldn’t that’s not reflecting on you. You know, one thing, one example that I share is I really want to join Copy Hackers way back in the day, but I had just had a baby like, I don’t even know if I was back from maternity leave. And this was my last baby. So my maternity leave was like 43 seconds. But I was getting the sales emails, and I was feeling super FOMO. Like, I felt like, I really want to do this, but I had everything happening in my life. So does that mean Joanna weaves products and services were like, not good? Because Erin didn’t buy? No, absolutely, she’s not. She’s not in her house crying at night, because Aaron on her email list didn’t purchase her product I didn’t buy because even though the product was exactly what I needed, even though I really wanted to do it, it personally wasn’t a good time for me. And again, that’s, you know, I’m sidestepping here with a story. But I think having information about your audience awareness levels is so helpful to writing and realizing to from a mindset perspective that no matter how good your message is, sometimes what you’re sharing just isn’t the right time for your potential clients. One thing that I think we should talk about now, since we’re talking about knowing the audience awareness level, in addition of knowing the voice of customer data is how do we take that information that we’ve gained from our research and use that level of awareness and use that voice of customer to dictate what we write in our sales copy? I love 31:49 this question. Okay. So when we know the audience awareness level, so we know what our folks are struggling with, we know if their problem aware, if they’re solution aware, right, if they know what the solution is to their problem, they’re just looking for some reassurance or more information to go ahead with that solution. Or if they’re actually most aware, they already know what our product is that they you know, are really just looking for testimonials and case studies to know that the product works and deliver it delivers on the transformation that informs how we need them in the coffee, right. So let me elaborate just for a sec. If your audience is problem aware, they know they have a problem. They don’t know how to solve that problem. The way we talk to those folks is we talk about their problems, right? That’s what they’re paying attention to. That’s what’s going to hook them. If your audience is problem aware, and you come at them chatting about your product and why your product works, we’re missing a step right there, they’re not going to be interested, it might just kind of fly right over their head and not grab their attention because they’re still in that problem aware stage. So if that makes sense, then we know how to talk to our problem aware audience, right, hooking them by talking about their pain, and then introducing a solution. If our audience knows all about their problems, and it’s all about a good solution, and knows all about your product, and they are a most aware audience. For example, maybe they’ve gone through a webinar or a masterclass with you, they already know the product you’re pitching, then we don’t really need to talk about their problems up front so much, but rather, we want to show them why our product works, right. So so you can see. And in that instance, we might leave with some testimonials, who are really leading with our differentiators, letting our folks know why our product is the product to move them into the solution and transformation they’re looking for. So considering and taking into account, your audience’s level of awareness absolutely gets to inform how you chat with them, when you chat with them and what you chat with them about. Erin Ollila  34:09 I love that that is so helpful. And I think that as a consumer, like I might be listening to this and say, Well, okay, I’m not a marketer, how do I know this, but it really circles back to what we were just discussing, when you take the time to gain that information from your audience just by asking questions. I mean, it doesn’t even have to be this massive voc research project, which of course, we would both recommend. But if it’s just as simple as like being active on social media, using your email newsletter to ask questions of your audience, then what they say to you, that’s the answer. So like, that sounds simplified, but it really is that simple. If you know what they would say to the questions that you have, if you know what their concerns or their problems are. That is the key to know in which level of awareness that you should be writing your copy to. 34:58 Yes, right and You can, you know, sometimes folks are a little bit afraid to like put a sticker up on Instagram, you don’t need 200 people to answer right? Yes, a handful of folks, I would say, you know, even 10 to 20 responses. Even less than that if you’re starting out with a super small audience, all of that information is super key to figuring out your messaging. And where your folks are at, I would say to you also want to take into account your own sales funnel. So if you’re running ads to a cold audience, you want to know which level of awareness that cold audiences at if you’re, you know, sending some emails to your list, well, maybe your list already knows about your product, maybe they’ve already gone through maybe a webinar sequence and now you’re nurturing them so so we just want to meet folks where they’re at? Yes, you can survey folks. And also don’t forget to take into account your own sales funnel and your own customer journey. Erin Ollila  35:57 That’s awesome. So for that’s great for the people who are DIY Ng and now for the people who are considering hiring a copywriter. I know we’ve definitely touched on this briefly before but if you’ve listened to this episode, and you’re like, Okay, I’m taking everything that Kristin and Aaron said into consideration. I am ready to be strategic because I do not want to waste a penny or a moment of my hard earned time. What do you think that their next steps are? Like? Do you have some like quick and dirty advice that you can share for them to consider how to decide who to hire or what to tell the copywriters as they’re doing that like onboarding phase? Yeah, 36:36 well, your copywriter is only as good as the questions I ask, right. So I would say, as a client, as folks who are my clients, I really appreciate when they let me take the reins, because I know the questions to ask, right? This is something I think about customer journeys and sales, messaging, and sales copy. Those are things that I think about all the time. So I would say if you’re considering hiring a copywriter to help with your launch copy, or your sales page, or your sales emails that you chat with them and see, you know, not in a covert way at all, but just kind of feel them out and see if they really understand how to go about creating messaging and sales copy, you don’t have to come with any particular like, I need to tell them this on the onboarding, let the copywriter take the reins, because they’ll for sure know which questions to ask you. And also which questions to ask your audience to get those really juicy sales messaging nuggets out of whoever they’re chatting with. That is Erin Ollila  37:41 such a valid point. And I don’t I mean, I think I’ve always understood it, but I don’t think I’ve ever heard it in the way that you described it. You know, a copywriter is only as good as the questions they asked like, regardless of whether it’s sales, copy, website, social media, Facebook ads, think of that, right? Like, what questions are they asking of me? And the way that they asked their questions? Is it giving them the information to also help us? Because sometimes I will get on Discovery calls. And I’ll tell people like very kindly like, I love that you’re working on this. But what it seems like you need is this one marketing aspect before you invest all this money. It kind of goes both ways, right? Like you want someone who’s going to be able to ask you good questions to help you make a decision. But you also want someone who can ask good questions that they can guide you in the right way. I think that was a genius statement. If if we take anything from this whole episode, Kristen has just completely coined a phrase that we should all totally consider that the copywriter is only good at the questions they 38:40 ask. I’m sure I’m sure I’m stealing that from someone. I don’t know who but Erin Ollila  38:45 I’m willing to give you full credit here like them. So before we move on to our connection questions, I do want everyone to know that Krisna actually has a great lead magnet, I really think you should check out it’s 10 tips to make your sales page irresistible. I will put the link to that in the show notes. Thank you so much for sharing that. So we’re ending the episodes now by doing connection questions. And the very first one, we’re going to keep it simple and just ask who in this online business space would you like to be connected with? Let’s find your match? Okay. 39:14 Oh my god. Yeah. And you said I can answer this selfishly, right. Erin Ollila  39:17 Oh, this is only like, this is a must. Selfish answer. 39:21 Half of me wants to say Oprah, but you know what? Okay. Oprah Erin Ollila  39:24 No, no, no, no, we’ll do it. We’ll give you two answers here. Oh, abre. I’m sure you are listening to my podcast at this point in time. So give me a call. Or you can contact Kristen directly. Her URL will be in the show notes. Besides Oprah because I do want I’m sure Oprah has she has great taste. Of course he’s going to want to talk to you. But besides Oprah, who would you like to? To speak with in the online world? 39:48 A few folks. I I enjoy kind of this question just to kind of reflect on my own business and where I want to go. I really love chatting with a couple of audiences. Number one Of course creators and folks who are launching digital products Absolutely. We’d love chatting sales copy so I love connecting with those folks. Number two sorry I’m Erin Ollila  40:10 okay give me a long list if you want oh alright, 40:12 I’ll keep it short. Number two I love chatting with new copywriters love that conversation about sales copy about business. So new copywriters are all good. Always welcome in my DMs and also I have future aspirations and I don’t know if I’ve said this on a podcast yet, but I have future aspirations to help teachers build their own copywriting businesses since I was a teacher many eons ago, right all two years ago, I was an English teacher and quit my teaching job to start a successful copywriting business. So any teachers out there in the ether in the internet ether, who want to transition careers and also would love to Erin Ollila  40:55 chat with us about please call Kristen, she’s a great, great person to speak with. Okay, so we asked who you want to talk to let us now ask our silly questions. So we can figure out like who who’s the best match for you. So I actually heard you on Christy’s podcast, a captivating convert. And what struck me with the conversation you had with Christie was that you had your MFA. And I also have my MFA. So I was like, gonna be her best friend now. So for my next question, what book would you recommend to my audience, anything that you want is there you know, one or a couple of books that you’d recommend? 41:31 Oh, man, you might have to you might have to rein me in here. Should we do? Well, poetry was my focus in my MFA. So I’ll stay in my lane. I always come back to this one suggestion because it was a really pivotal book for me. And when I stumbled upon this book, it was in a little store called the tattered cover, which is a there’s a couple of them in Colorado, and I was standing in the poetry aisle thumbing through this book, I’d never heard of the author just kind of picked it out of the pile. And I sat down on the floor because I loved it so much. And I’ve read it cover to cover and then I of course, bought it and like marked it up, and I come back to this book all the time, because the poems are amazing, the poet is amazing. And he sends come out with some some other books as well. So I’m gonna go with a book called night sky with exit wound, and it’s by ocean long. Oh, thank Erin Ollila  42:25 you for sharing that. I have not heard of that book and or the poet, so I’m very excited to go and pick that up. I love that. 42:32 If you read it, and you’d love it to help in my DMs. I’ve got many more suggestions for you. All right. Erin Ollila  42:36 And final question, because I don’t know why. But I seem like I can only ask food questions on this podcast. But if you had to have one breakfast for the rest of your life that could not change. What would you choose? 42:47 It has to be a breakfast. It has Erin Ollila  42:49 to be a breakfast. Okay, 42:50 this is funny. I actually don’t eat breakfast normally. I’m like not I eat a little bit later in the day. But I love breakfast like everybody else, right? Like breakfast for dinner breakfast for lunch, breakfast for midnight snack. My favorite go to breakfast. And this is a little bit basic, but it is a classic. I’ve learned a year or two ago how to make bread. So sometimes I’ll go ahead and make a little little loaf of homemade bread. Slice it Up toast some homemade bread, put a slice of cheese down, put a overeasy egg on Tom little salt and pepper, maybe a little garnish, and it’s just it’s so dang good. Super simple. But I mean, every time I need it, I’m like why don’t you do anything else? Erin Ollila  43:41 So seriously. So Kristen, you have just been so wonderful. Just thank you so much for being here. Thank you so much for having me. This was so fun.