Strategic Sales Launches and Non-Sleazy Sales Copy with Jess Haney

NOTE: This podcast was transcribed using Otter, an AI tool. Please excuse any typos or errors, and reach out if you have any questions in what goes into this transcript about ethical sales launches. SUMMARY KEYWORDS sales launches, sales launch, launch, business, marketing, service providers, pain points, copywriter, point, clients, privilege, big, program, factor, plays, sales, roy, decisions, questions, money, SPEAKERS Erin Ollila Erin Ollila 00:00 All right, today we’re here to talk to Jess Haney, who is a conversion copywriter and launch strategist. What she does is help coaches and service providers move from a one to one to a one to many model through some strategic personalized sales, copy launch content and launch plans. But what you might no not know about Jess is that she actually plays Dungeons and Dragons. Her current character is a dwarf male Paladin named Roy. And Roy sells fish sandwiches and is dumb as rocks for he just wants to do kind things for the people and good things for the world. So Jess, welcome. I’m so happy to have you here. 00:42 Yeah, thanks for having me. Really excited to chat all the things today, including Dungeons and Dragons. So Roy came to be because my he’s my second character. My first character was a girl named Noah, her name was no offense and playing a female character, it was just too easy to make the decisions that I would make. So she was very like, in the action she like, wanted to be out front. She was like smart and cunning and like, you know, it was hard to separate myself. So I said the next game, I want to be somebody that’s not me. And it’s been fun, but like hard. Erin Ollila 01:20 I love that. And you know, so this is gonna sound so strange. But I asked these questions because in general, I really love to, like learn something new about people like something that we would not necessarily talk about on social media, or it might not come up in conversations in a more like wide audience manner. But for every interview I’ve done, I’ve found in like precise connection on either a how to take what was said in these, like unknown facts and turn it into like what we need to talk about or be how it relates exactly back to the like person I’m working with. And what I hear you say this, it just makes me think like, how I always get asked as a copywriter, like how can you write in my voice? So like, I think it’s so interesting, especially how you describe Noah and Roy, right that like with Noah, part of the problem, we’ll throw air quotes on the word problem here is that it was so much like you and you knew it very well, and you want it to be challenged more. And then for Roy, like that’s such the like, how do you write in your clients voice? Right? Like you have to figure out how to play this character who is different from you in a way that is authentic to Roy. And that’s what you do for your clients as a copywriter? 02:32 Yeah, absolutely. That’s, I love that parallel. Erin Ollila 02:35 Yeah. And well, 02:36 I would I ever thought of that. Erin Ollila 02:37 So let’s talk in general, we just right before this, we had an episode with Kristin, who talked about some of the strategic decisions that get made in launching and specifically about how to like think about your copy and think about big launch versus like, just get it out there and have like a lazy launch, right. But what I love about following that episode with this episode, is that I think you’re really a great expert to talk about how to go from that, like one on one service work to one to many, through the conversations I’ve had with my website clients, when we talk about what needs to go on the Services page, or like how do we present services plus sales authors is that they really struggle with how how to jump from that original service provider to being someone who offers something to a wider group. What would you say to those group of people who just aren’t sure how to make that leap? Or make that jump? 03:37 Hmm. So that’s a really great question. And something that I think people do struggle with a lot. And they wait a really, really long time to make the decision. And I think the first thing is like even having that spark of an interest to want to move towards one too many, because it’s not for everyone, right? You are you’re switching your business model from going from like this one to one, it’s very personalized. It’s very, like intimate to all of a sudden saying like, Hey, I’m going to teach you how to do this thing yourself for your business. Right? Right. So that requires, like you said, a different piece of your personality to come out. So I think having that desire, first and foremost is the most important. But when you know like very logically that you’re ready is when you find you’re getting on calls with people and doing work with people and they’re all asking you the exact same questions. And you start to recognize this pattern that you’re like, Oh, I could take you know, this set of questions or this set of deliverables and like I’ve, I’ve been doing this work long enough that I noticed all of these common themes, and I’m just going to organize them, lay out this framework and swap it around so that I’m supporting more people and what ends up being really interesting and what I really love about the one one to many model is a you get to support way more people with this model of business. So you’ll get to a point with your one to one services, as you’re raising your prices and raising your prices, they do get out of reach for a lot of people. And that’s where I found myself and where a lot of my clients find themselves is that you have to have a certain level of privilege to be able to access my one to one services. At this point, let’s take a look at how I can kind of lower that barrier to entry, while still providing like a lot of support. So that’s pretty much like those two pieces, I would say is wanting like having that inkling of like I want to I want to do this. And then on the other hand, it’s like if your services are booked out, and they’re, you know, expensive, and not everybody can afford them, but you want to help more people. That’s when it’s time to start looking at that for sure. Erin Ollila 05:53 Yeah, that’s such a great answer. It’s so funny, because I have like four ways, I want to respond to what you said, let’s start with just the general aspect of like being able to offer your expertise to a group of people at a lower price barrier. Because one thing I have found, my business is split pretty well between the people who hire me for done for you services, you know, like you said, the higher price point there is a level of privilege, either privilege or experience as well, because the clients that want me to do it for them, they’re further along in their business that they don’t necessarily care to be as involved in the minutiae of the marketing litsen. But then the other group are my copy coaching clients, and they’ll come to me for either, you know, mentoring, or strategic help when they before they start, as well as like editing and like coaching, how to, like take their draft to the final stage. But what I find with that group of people is, it’s a very wide range of entrepreneurs, right? Like, you have a group of highly experienced people who really just want to be involved in the marketing process, because they find it interesting. And like, maybe their strong suit is storytelling, let’s say. And then you have newer entrepreneurs, like you said, where price is a barrier for them. But what I’ve found, like working with them, and just kind of like witnessing their experience of the doing it themselves is they are highly motivated, right? Like they’re invested. Because they know that they have skin in the game, I guess, right? So like, I think it is like, if someone is teetering on that line of making the decision on whether they can move their business, from one to one to one to many, I think it’s also understanding that, like you’re looking at more as a service, like the word that we use for our businesses, our service providers, but I think that sometimes we forget that what we’re doing truly is a service to someone else, like being there and supporting them. And having a one to many option in your, in your business is a great way to give back while you’re growing, right, like giving the tools to people who will be motivated and will be invested in the process. 07:56 Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And I think the thing too, is it frees up your time as well. Like, of course, there’s those initial growing pains and you’re writing the lessons and putting together the modules and and all these things, but then it allows you to free up this space in your calendar that your one to one clients actually receive even more support from you. Total, which is really cool. So it’s it really it’s like this snowball effect, where all of a sudden, the ripples that you’re casting from your work are actually exceeding like, even further than they were before. Erin Ollila 08:34 If you are considering going from the one to one to the one to many, your approach to how you decide to create, and to launch really based on so many factors, like do you have a team of people that are running the actual business for you, and that gives you like, that frees you up the time to do all of the like ideation and the creation and the testing, then do it like that’s awesome, right? But at the same time, like if you are whatever your circumstances are like you could also approach this as a strategically planned program that is created while while it’s going on like Justin’s doing right now for exhale. So I’m saying this, but one thing I think is really interesting that we can transition from creation into the launch strategy is the same level of like, it depends because clients are always asking me like, Well, I do a lot of strategic decisions as well, website wise, right? And I’m sure like, most of your job is just this strategic decision making for them. So when people are coming to you and they are they have their products, or at least they’re like well written, you know, like, well set up foundation for what they’re offering. How do you start to guide them when they make a decision on what they’ll be offering? 09:44 Yeah, it’s all it depends, right? Erin Ollila 09:48 Which is fair. So that’s what I mean. Like, I’m prepping everyone to understand like this is generalized advice, right, but like, maybe like a starting place for where people can kind of ID based on their own life circumstances, their own offerings. 10:02 Yeah. So essentially, I like to take a look like very holistically at, I just use the word holistically. And I hate when people use that in marketing, but it’s like looking at the whole human looking at the whole business looking at the whole, like offer. And it’s essentially kind of like, when do you want to launch this thing? By where’s your email list at? Do you want to have a live launch event? Or do you hate speaking in front of people? Like, that’s kind of where I get my start from? When I look at people? And I say, you know, when are we? When are we doing this by? Because the reality is, there are great times, I mean, the pandemic kind of threw this out the window with like, there being quote, unquote, great times to launch because like, what is time anymore? But I know, I have no clue. But some people are like, Well, I’m getting married in September. So I need to be done and wrap this like entire program up by the end of August. Okay, so how long is that going to take two months for you to run it? Okay, so we need two months to launch it. So you’re looking at us during our launch, you know, pre launch content starts going out at the start of June. And it’s just kind of like getting that like framework ready of how long are we going to need? What’s happening in your life between now and then. And then taking a look at the person’s capacity. Like, we all like to think that you know, okay, in a regular week, I post on Instagram once and I’m in my stories daily, we’d like to think, Oh, well, when I’m in a launch, I’ll be totally fine to show up on my stories 12 times a day. And I’m going to post four reels a week, and I’m going to do three and I’m like, no, no, no, we’re gonna scale this back. So let’s see how much content we can actually get out between now and then how much we can grow your list, can we do a live launch event, and then start to put together a book the offer from there? Erin Ollila 11:56 Yeah, that’s really smart of the people who are listening, I mentioned before, we do have some DIY errs. But I we also have a good portion of people who are service providers that like like I said, just want to hire out. So I think that’s a very valuable lesson, everything that you said, Often time marketing is the last thing that people consider when it really needs to be the very first thing that people consider. Because if you just if you went through just the example that just just said, and you know, you’re trying to figure out when you need to work with a copywriter, if everything needs to be completed by the end of August, and you’re starting at the beginning of June, and honestly, you know, some people may need to start earlier than that if they don’t have much of a list at all to write because then you’re doing the list building before the pre launch before the launch and before the program. So if you come to a service, like a copywriter in July and sit well, that’s a bad example, the end of June or the beginning of June and say, Oh, I’m launching next month, right? Like you haven’t done a copywriter needs to take time to work in regards to strategy, they also then need to take time to for the writing. Then there’s the editing of how things need to get adjusted to make sure it’s like living up to the expectations of the course as well as the voice of the business owner. That takes time. But like I think this strategic planning takes just as much time as the writing and editing. Coming to someone when it should actually be your launch running is not going to work and most copywriters, one don’t have the flexibility to adjust their schedule based on a business’s needs. So if you are thinking of this, if this is the first time you’re going to move one too many, or if you have been doing it one too many, but you haven’t actually worked with a copywriter before, know that you want to start this process much earlier than you think that you do. Even if it’s like, okay, it’s March and you know, the like launch strategy is going to happen in June like, Okay, you need to start contacting people finding out their vil availability, even if there’s enough time at this point, if you determine you’re too late for your launch, just know like it, there is value in still either working with someone now. So that way you can be better set up for your future launch, or working with someone who can help you analyze the current launch, that was not as strategic. So that way the next time it’s run, you can use that data for the strategy of the next time because if you know if you if you don’t know what kind of data to collect, you can’t share that information with your copywriter. 14:25 Oh, yeah. I mean, the amount of times I’ve asked like, what was the conversion rate on your sales page? No idea. And I’m like, that’s probably like day one, like starting data that we need is like how many people saw the page? Because and this is the thing too, that’s important for collecting data. And I know this wasn’t like the start of the question. But collecting data is so important because number one it is numbers which don’t lie numbers do not have emotions attached to them. Right. I’ll have people come to me and they say I only made six sales or I only we only did $10,000. And I say, what’s the size of your list? How many people clicked through on those emails, we, how many purchasers was that and how many people actually landed on the page. And when I get this information back, and I say, your sales page converted at 4%, that’s, you know, unless you are somebody who’s been in the business for years, and you have the like, down to the like, pixel data for everybody who’s scrolling in your split testing, you’re doing all these things. 5% is like the best that you could ask for, on average. So it’s like, six doesn’t sound like a lot of buyers or $10,000. Doesn’t, might not sound like a lot of money, because you were hoping for more. But at the end of the day, if that’s coming in, and that’s 4% conversion rate, that’s beautiful. And all of a sudden, the mindset is changed. Like just having these conversations with people I did literally that this morning, where this business came to me and they said we weren’t happy with the numbers of our launch. And all I had to do was sit down. And I said, this is literally what I would have projected for you. And you did this all yourself. So this is incredible, right? And it’s that expectation. So I love like I literally have goosebumps, I love data so much. Erin Ollila 16:21 No, I agree with you. And I think the most major point that needs to be made there is that numbers don’t have emotions. I just last week before recording had my first live workshop of the year. I love teaching, I have a teeny tiny list, because I’ve never really done the marketing for my own business. But I did have like a good handful of people who signed up for it. So at first I was like, oh, man, five people. That’s not a lot. But then when I do the actual factoring of how big my list is, based on how many clicks from my email to my page, then based on how many of those converted it is like, pretty freakin fantastic. Right? There you go. And then the other thing, I think there’s so many factors to like, in regard to this emotion that either we have or the fact that you know, numbers don’t have emotion as I then have like using myself as an example, factor in that I did zero pre launch content. I did the tiniest amount of launch content and like so there was no prep period. This was just kind of like Hey, guys, oops, forgot to tell you I do this every year. Do you want to do it with me this year? Right? Yeah, so there was no priming, and that largely plays into conversions. So I think that people should look at these reflections or like analyzation of prior launches, to the fact that all of these factors are playing in. I always tell people like there are things I would love actually, I looked at your your program, and I loved it. I loved everything that I read in your sales page. And I was like, Yeah, I want to do this. And it just wasn’t the right time. Right. You know, so like, if we lead our strategy based on emotion, right? Like, you could look at that and be like, Why didn’t Aaron buy from me? Like, she seems so interested? Right? No, it’s legit, like, yeah, maybe I will next time you do, right? Like you just have to keep factoring that in is that there are people that like us, and there are people that admire us and might want to work with us that for a billion reasons, all of them nothing negative. They could be like financial personal timeline, like maybe like, for me, I’m going on to vacations coming up soon. Like I have to factor that into how much time I have to spend on my own business. So all of those things go into decision making and they are not reflective on you or your business and in any way 18:40 and yeah, I mean, that’s a perfect point. And there’s a lot of people who will watch you launch over and over and over again and they’re just waiting for it to be the right time for them and I have clients who will go mad wondering why the same group of people over and over and over continue to open their emails click through look at the sales page launch after launch after launch, but then it’s like finally this person buys and they’re like oh my gosh, they did it fine. And I said you know sometimes you just have to think of your customer cycle like your customer journey can be very very long and that’s not the sexy stuff that you know the launch gurus want to talk about. No that’s that’s not what they want to say is going to bring in your five figure launch or your six figure launch or whatever arbitrary number The Internet has decided to you know apply to a quote unquote successful launch these days. Erin Ollila 19:37 All I hear is seven figures these days and I’m like you guys I’m in yes that’s all I hear like seven figure this seven figure that and I’m like when we’re all talking about seven figures are we aware that we’re talking about like millions of dollars that’s a lot of money people right like and it’s so it’s everyone in the online industry is not Making cycles of millions of dollars like the economy would be so vastly different if the wide range of online marketers were like cycling through millions regularly on all of these launches that they’re doing. Which brings me though to something I really wanted to talk to you about. And one, it’s the misconceptions. Let’s say that’s the nicest word I can choose about what marketing in regards to larger launches look like. And two, I also really want to talk to you about how like the big successful launches are really done from a place of privilege. Because what happens is right, like we have these this Miss misconception in the marketing community that like, if you close your eyes, blink four times, and only sleep for 30 minutes, that night, you’re going to make a million dollars of sale, oh, let’s let’s be even kinder, you’re going to make $100,000 lodge for that launch. Right? So and I, you know, I say that sarcastically but everyone who listens, I’m sure can identify with seeing something like that, at least on the internet, like promises, those are usually made from the people who are the bigger up marketing gurus, right? Who have that level of privilege in their business, to be able to use data from theirs and other similar businesses that they’re surrounded by to share these numbers. So let’s dig in on privilege a little bit, like how does that factor into launching or making sales 21:32 it It honestly factors into every single, every single factor like it, if you have the money to hire, let’s say, a copywriter, a launch strategist, you have somebody who can, you know, do all of your branding, you have somebody who can build your website, lower your load, your site load speed, you can afford to hire a Facebook ads management company, have somebody overlooking all of your data, like making these tweaks and decisions real time. Like if you have 25 $30,000 that you can invest ahead of your launch before you even have another dollar coming in from your launch, it’s game over, right, of course, that person is going to execute a multiple six figure launch. And they have also likely been in business for many, many years. So they have many years of data. And that’s not to say that that person didn’t work hard to keep their business afloat. But running and starting an online business, you have to have some type of security behind you. Sure. Right. Like it’s just not I think it’s easy to lose sight as you’re somebody who works online to think that like, everybody has these, like 5k 10k 20k months, when that’s not that, like, it’s bizarre that we get lost in this idea that this is what people are bringing in. And then we are sitting here looking at these gurus making all the all that money because they have that capital, right. And if I think about a lot of these people who I have previously followed online, and it was like, their husbands had a full time job. And, you know, if they brought in nothing, if they spent 30 grand on a launch that failed, they would be totally fine. You know, things like that. And that’s where that privilege plays into. It’s like, if they can afford to take these risks, then, you know, they’re, they’re ahead of the game. Erin Ollila 23:32 And in some ways, I mean, like, there’s no fault to them, like, right, like, I mean, if you don’t have the, if you have the finances, you have the experience, you have the team. I mean, I will say something on the opposite of this in a moment. But if you have that, like use it, and make that money, like good for you get out there, you have a great product, make that money, but it is unrealistic. I would say for the vast majority of online business owners, the vast majority of online business owners are not in that same level of privilege and opportunity as those people that we just said, you know, like more power to them. Like, you know, I know, I’m not like, you know, we talked about this earlier, like, I’m very happy with my life and my business. But I have to also check myself sometimes to be like, No, you are working at home with kids at home, like there is no childcare, like you have limited hours, you might want to do X, Y and Z are in but you need to pull yourself back a little right, like, you know, unless I won the lottery at this very moment, I could not Well, I am a little risk averse, right? Like I’m sure if I wanted to I could put like 25,000 on a credit card and be like fingers crossed for this launch. But like, let’s see, right, you know, like, No, I’m not gonna do that at all because I just don’t, that’s just not me. I can still run a successful business and make good money without having to compare myself to these people who are able to have their privilege set them up better. I forgot what you had to wait But you had described it, but I love the way that you said it. 25:01 Like, what were you saying, Oh, they’re just like they’re on another level. Erin Ollila 25:05 Thank you. That’s what you said like you are, they are a different level. And we are going to learn from them, which we can if we’re if people are going to invest in like some of the bigger Mark bigger marketers courses, we need to set that expectation with ourselves that for most people, the key is putting in the baby steps, doing the work, getting that data about our own businesses, and being able to use that to strengthen every launch moving forward. 25:32 And I think another thing that’s like, not talked about a lot is that a lot of these like, you know, top marketers, they’re all in, like masterminds and groups with each other that they’ve paid a lot of money to be in. And so they also have the leverage of using each other’s networks. Yes, right. So they have friends who have email lists of, you know, 50 to 100,000 people, 20,000 people, whatever that looks like. And they get to take advantage of that. And again, that’s operating from a place of privilege, that’s not something I would have access to not something you would have access to. And so again, how access to it, right. And so again, it’s not saying that they didn’t work to make the money to put themselves in these places. But what it means is that, like, people don’t talk about that. And I think that’s what makes me like, you know, when people come out, and they say they had this big launch, and I say, let’s, let’s see how what support you had in place to get there. Because the people who aren’t in marketing, it’s easy to forget that those are things that people are doing, oh my god, yeah. And that’s what leads to disappointment. Erin Ollila 26:45 And I find that there is a big difference between my clients who work in slightly marketing related fields, like or at least, like from whatever they’ve been doing in their businesses have gained a lot of marketing knowledge, compared to people who just do not have that experience. You know, like, for example, someone who might have been a coach in the corporate world who has now started their own business and as offering like a group program, they have no and not in a negative way, this is not an insult to them, they have just no understanding of what marketing looks like, in the online world, because they have been in corporate, if they work with their marketing department in corporate in the past, they’re not considering financials. And there’s a big difference between corporate marketing and online digital marketing, right. So then they find some of these, you know, big name marketers, and they hear these promises, let’s say, and it is, I think, really hard for them to then change their mindset of what they should expect for themselves. So yes, I do think the knowledge that you have in marketing can can help. But also, that’s a different level of why it’s more difficult for people who just don’t have that knowledge. One thing I really want to talk about too, before we move away from the big of the big guys here is I think that like, you and I have discussed this before, but one thing I find is very frustrating is so this is where I said I was going to say something contradictory. Okay. I want to say two things. Sorry. All right. One, the one thing I want to say with what you were just saying that is really important is yes, hard work plays a large potential factor into some of these people and why they are in this top tier. But I was just watching a clip from Trevor Noah’s show, and if anyone does not know this about me, I have the biggest crush on Trevor Noah. So anything he says I’m always like, Uh huh. Yeah. Yeah, I got you, boo. Yeah, mind you, my husband knows this. So it’s okay to share this on the on the podcast as well. But what he said was just such a, like a valid point, like, people like to think that hard work and determination is what moves them up a cycle of like, a career ladder and being able to work more money, but it’s really luck, right? So like, his joke was like, look at how hard his grandmother worked. And then look how little he worked. And like the vast differences of his life like he’s like this like famous comedian, partially because luck played such a like Monster role for him, where his grandmother worked her tail off like her entire life, to provide for her entire family like never stopping working. So I think that yes, top tier marketers, people who are coming from that place of privilege may have potentially worked very hard. And I would not want to generalize and take that away from anyone who has just really like made successes in their career, but to the service providers who are listening whether you are starting this one too many now in your journey, or it’s something that you’ve been doing for a while, just remember that luck plays such a large factor into everything that we’re talking about today. I mean, just mentioned the pandemic before, right like, pre pandemic. I think marketers had a Gen Real good understanding of the best like seasonality for launches, the type of data that they could get from putting Facebook ads or other types of ads. So well, the past two years have just been like a complete crapshoot for marketers where there’s just so much guessing and so much changing that luck is the huge factor in so many of these things. Right? Yeah. So that was my one point. And obviously, I mean, I can’t believe it’s taken me until this episode to talk about Trevor Noah, I’m glad that him in here. But the second thing I really want to discuss, I know like, we’re, we’re towards the end of our time here. And I don’t want people to have to do like 18 loads of dishes while they’re listening to us just to listen to the end of the episode. But is the idea that when with privilege, a lot of what I see and you specifically said this, to me was, what happens is in their copy, they’re relying on shame and manipulation. And that is definitely the case for people who I think are leading the launches that we look at with starry eyes, wishing that it could be something that we’re doing. And I just think it’s something that people should make very smart decisions to shy away from in their own business. 31:16 Yeah, absolutely. And I think the internet, or I mean, at least like the small corner of the internet that I exist in, it seems that everybody is looking to move more away from you know, the the pain points, the shame, the manipulation, like that kind of messaging, but it’s frustrating, because that kind of messaging still really works. And so it is it is tough, because I have had clients say, you know, it’s frustrating that I don’t use those tactics, and then somebody you know, a quote, unquote competitor uses those tactics, and they’re making so much more money than me, right. And it comes down to how do you what place do you want to operate from? And yeah, for me, it’s just, I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t feel good doing that. And so yeah, they they be relying on that. Shame and manipulation, for sure. Erin Ollila 32:18 And I think there’s one key thing too, like that might make people feel more comfortable approaching sales in an like sales copy in an ethical way. Like at least this is how I look at it, I feel like I have a really good grasp on this. Now, I am really struggling with the term pain points because I’m just so sick and tired of people relying on them and marketing but but the truth of the matter is, like I someone had shared some content on social that I found myself disagreeing with, which was seemed weird for me to why I would disagree on this. But the point was, like, hey, let’s not talk about pain points at all in our copy, like, let’s just invite people into our world kind of a thing like we don’t need to shame them which I agree with, we do not need to shame anyone that pain points. But like prior to my copywriting career, I had over a decade career working in the mental health field. And you know, I grew up with like my father, as a psychiatrist, psychologist. So like, I have always learned a lot about psychology and mental health. And what I the way I look at this is pain points are a true and real thing. Right? So if we as copywriters or service providers who are DIY in, approach our copy from a sense of acknowledging a pain point, without taking advantage of a pain point, and that is how you have an ethical copy, right? So I think, what if we’re looking at not how to walk a fine line at all, because I’m very anti, the shame and manipulation. But I do think we have to acknowledge people’s pain points and like what they’re experiencing. So it’s kind of like saying, like, I understand you, and then move past it quickly. I think for people who do not want to have that shame and manipulation, if you look at it from that perspective of, it’s fine to say, you know, where someone is struggling in the copy, right? And then just get past that and talk about how to move move from struggle into where they’d like to be like, because that’s the key. It’s the it’s the aspiration, it’s the transformation, like, we can talk about that in a way that is healthy. And from a sales perspective. We just shouldn’t rely on that current struggle as what’s helping to make the sale does Am I making sense? Because I think this is the first time I’ve really talked through what I mean. 34:36 No, that that makes a lot of sense. And I think the part where it becomes very manipulative, and it becomes relying too much on pain points is when a you make assumptions. Yeah, so when you say like, I know that you feel X, Y and Zed. It’s like, how do you know, right? Why are you making this assumption on behalf of the hundreds of people that could land on this page. And calling out. You know, a painful situation is one thing, but really digging in deep and kind of re exposing someone to like a shameful situation or maybe even to trauma. Like that. It’s where I get to a point of like, How dare you like how dare you put this on your page when somebody could just be scrolling along, especially on Instagram, it’s like, you know, this mom could just be like feeding her baby in the middle of the night, you know, trying to get a break. And you’re just like telling her that she sucks because Erin Ollila 35:38 it is that is all over Instagram. I’ve had a couple of kids. So I can tell you that like late night scrolling, there is an immense amount of like, shame marketing, that’s happening. 35:48 Yes, exactly. And it, it’s, it can be so subtle, and just so crappy. And I just think it’s not necessary. And I just don’t think that anybody deserves to be scrolling Instagram and be like, re introduced to their trauma or like being told why they are bad, or they suck at x y Zed because like, we’re our harshest critics, like if we’re thinking about that. We’ve We’ve said it 10 times over, right? How about we just show them that we’re here for them? We understand and we can help them move past it when they are ready. Erin Ollila 36:24 Right? Yeah. And I think that you know, so I mentioned like, it’s okay to acknowledge pain point, if necessary. And I think one thing I’d really like to throw out there is I mean that more for introductory copy, when it comes to like, showing transitions or like making promises. That’s where I absolutely don’t think that we should be relying on any type of unnecessary like friction or tension. Because like, think about how like people in the copywriting field will say things or like business owners, I can’t even I’m not blaming this on just copywriters, right? We’ll say like, if you don’t purchase this program, you may and like so that’s like a complete nono, right? Like, if you want to offer someone a transformation, offer them the transformation. You can there’s nothing that you should or could be saying that’s like threatening in the sense of why it would not work, like what will happen to their life if they don’t do X, Y, and Z. Because again, it’s all assumptive. Like you’re saying, like you can’t make these assumptions. You do not know that, right? They like let’s say you’re saying like, Oh, your business will fail? How do you know like Mark Cuban is not going to like happen to like, run into them at the airport and be like, Jess, I want to give you millions of dollars. Right? Yeah, right. That’s the whole luck aspect. You know? 37:39 Yeah, I totally agree. And I think it’s just from the, you know, early days of marketing, it was the white men who didn’t care what they were saying who they were harming it was, you know, like, trigger people, get them, you know, dig at their pain points, expose them even further, show them how much worse life could get, the longer that this goes on. And it works. But like, the people feel so crappy, and like, I’m not trying to do that, you know, no, I so it’s, it’s, it’s not necessary. And to me having a slower sales process and a slower like enrollment or you know, a longer time before, you know, maybe if you could get 20 enrollments in one round, maybe it takes 10 and 10 or something, to me that that’s worth it. Because you know, you’re operating from that, like, ethical, you’re starting off on an ethical foot. Erin Ollila 38:39 Yeah. And then I always tell people to like the type of customers you get from being more humanistic and ethical in your marketing, they will be better customers who will give you better insights, which will help you be able to change and address marketing things in the future, right? Like, even if you’d like, you know, you said 10 and 10, let’s say the first round of 10 that you have, you end up getting 10 People who are just or even eight, eight people who really like were invested in your program, they participated, they gave you feedback, if you get all of that, like qualitative and quantitative data from those eight great participants, maybe the next round of your launch is 50 people because you are just able to take everything from this small group and update it in a in an again, ethical way that speaks better to more people like them. 39:34 Well, and that’s exactly it. And, you know, it’s kind of like if you are getting these people in because you’re pushing them so like say I have been in your DMS during exhale, and I’m like, Oh, you can do it. You know, here are all these ways that like I could, you know, support you in making this decision and get you into the program. And then you’re on the other side feeling really anxious because you actually do won’t have the time and you knew that better than I knew that. Now, you’re not having a good time in the program. You’re feeling anxious, you’re not able to show up to the calls, you’re not getting the results. Now, okay, yeah, I got your money. But then what? Erin Ollila 40:18 Right, then you potentially want someone who’s not happy with you? Right? That’s exactly yeah, I try to remind business owners to like, this goes back to mindset and like not putting emotion and things is that like, you can also not rely on the experience of your customers to show you whether you’re a good or bad service provider, especially in a one to many model. Because if you have people in your program, who are not participating, whether it’s because like, they just don’t have time, so they’re not going to participate. And then when they review it later, they don’t get a lot of a lot from it, because they weren’t part of it. Right? They didn’t get that one on one work, or because they were in it, but like, you’re a complete example, they were more anxious, they were frustrated, they couldn’t put anything into effect. They walk away from it. And they say like, oh, Justice Program was not what I expected. Well, that’s honestly a lot of it. I mean, it could be on you sure, like, definitely take a quality of look on how, how are you giving to your audience, but it really is on them a lot, right? Like, a lot of people sign up for things when they are not ready because of this whole fear of missing out. And we if we are being more ethical in our marketing and our sales approach, we’re gonna get better people in which will then provide us a better testimonial. We’re giving more quality customer experience, which then gives better referrals from the people who had a better experience, right, like versus just getting people in the door having a social experience. And then even if they do give a referral to their group of like, network, you might be getting more so so people in just just a cycle. Yeah. 42:01 And I think this all comes back to your expectations. And like setting these expectations and not expecting like, yeah, sure, if I had have had 100 people sign up and I had this like, massive overnight success. I’ll take it. But I sat down and I said, I’m in this for the long haul. I know how this program changed my life, I’m confident it will change others. And that’s going to snowball total, right? So if two years down the road, I’m executing Milli, seven figure launches. Erin Ollila 42:34 Right, right, like everyone else has started. 42:37 I’m fine with that. Like, my business isn’t a like short term thing. Erin Ollila 42:42 Nor should it ever be like, I think that’s the biggest thing that is misconstrued in the online, digital marketing business world. I think that all of these courses and all of these programs, while they are actually truly wonderful, the big thing that’s never addressed is this true businesses are built on baby steps, period. Like so many consumers want to take a course because they think that it will like give them a leg up. But the leg up doesn’t happen if they don’t implement the work in addition to the course. Does that make sense? Right? So even when it comes to hiring a service provider, like I’ve turned down people who wanted me to like who would who was willing to pay my 1000s of dollars for websites? Because they didn’t know their business well enough, right? So yeah, it would have been great for me to have another, let’s say $5,000 In my business, but if they don’t know their business well enough, it’s going to be harder for them to be able to make strategic strategic decisions for me. And just putting a fancy website out there does nothing for building a business like you, they’re looking at all the other factors you need, you need to have email list and social media, networking, building a group of a community, not necessarily of like your audience, but your peers, like all of this all works at the same time. The whole point is being ethical getting the right people in the door, because you’re approaching them from a great kind, service based reason, right, is what will grow your business and is what could potentially get you those seven figures later on, because you’re just starting from a great point and then continuously building on that point. 44:25 Oh, absolutely. And I think we all get so stuck on pinpoint pinpointing the exception to these things right here about the one person who started their business and built it up to seven figures in a year. That’s the exception to the rule. Let’s look at the rule. And I I’ll take it like I said, If I become the exception, or if my launch becomes the exception, or my client becomes the exception, but let’s start from a realistic grounded place so that we can avoid some of that disappointment, Erin Ollila 44:57 right. This is so awesome. I have a couple Quick, very quick questions for you. But like TLDR, anyone, if you just were zoning out while we had this big, long conversation, what we’re trying to tell you is to just be a good human approach your marketing and your sales from a perspective of service, put the time in to have a smart launch period. So you can use data to make any decisions that you need. And then also get the data from your current launch so you can do make decisions for all of your future launches. My super tiny, quick questions for you because I really love connecting people and I love the fact that random things is what I think builds a lot of connections some time. So first question for you is, what type of entrepreneur would you love to meet at this point in your business, 45:47 I can think of a person who I would love to meet in real life. And that’s Gemma Bonham Carter. I took course greater school. That’s like where I got the foundation for launching my program. She’s Canadian, she lives in Ottawa. I just love her. She essentially if I could think of somebody who has like the business model that I want to have, that’s her. Erin Ollila 46:09 Alright, so second very random question. This one’s getting whatever it is like what is your favorite food? If you could only live on one food moving forward in your life? What would you choose? 46:19 Okay, so if this okay, hot girls have stomach problems, right? So that’s me for sure. So if I didn’t have stomach problems, it would be ice cream. Erin Ollila 46:29 Yeah, that’s literally the exact exact answer I would give. I am so obsessed with non dairy ice cream right now. Because I think I pretty much just like Rue my entire life on ice cream. Like I have eaten a lot of it in my days. But yeah, at some point, you know this as an old lady. I just can’t do it as much anymore. 46:48 Yeah, just like suffering being a hot girl. You know, it is Erin Ollila 46:51 so stinking hard. Alright, so that’s it. Those are my questions for you today. So if you guys love ice cream, and you want to be friends with Jess, because you’re like, Yes, I am also a hot girl and I want to love ice cream is just not happening to me. Or if you love Gemma as well. And you just admire her you like her programs the way she does her business you will also probably love just because she is just wonderful. And whatever you do, do not call her Jessie. Her name is Jess. period ended at that. And thank you so much for coming on the show today. I love this conversation. I think it is such a healthy conversation. Because, you know, we’ve talked about how to do a pre launch, we’ve talked about how to write your copy and what you should consider and launching. And I just love that, like we covered so much actual strategy and mindset stuff and expectations. So this has been so valuable and I’m just so appreciative of your time today. 47:48 Yeah, thanks for having me. And yeah, have all I’ll come back and do this again. Anytime I think right? Erin Ollila 47:53 Probably, like eight hours. I know I’m like I’m gonna have to put like something in the beginning of this episode. That’s like warning. This is a lot longer than normal. But you really do want to listen to this. Yes, yes, yes, yes.